If one enters into a pre-nuptial contract (secular legal contract stipulating limits on amounts/assets payable in case of divorce) with one's spouse before the wedding does this impact the halachic validity of the ketuba and marriage in an Orthodox marriage?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Yisroel Phillips,

Any effect is likely to be in the event of divorce, as Jewish Law renders invalid a Get given by force.

Have a look at the at the articles under the Marriage/Divorce section at Jewish Law

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Jewish Law renders invalid a Get given by force.

Please explain more what this means.

What the articles fail to mention are those marriages not allowed to end in divorce.

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Originally posted by rob:

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Jewish Law renders invalid a Get given by force.

Please explain more what this means.

A husband must give the Get voluntarily; any undue pressure to do so may well render the Get invalid.

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Originally posted by Raybin:
What the articles fail to mention are those marriages not allowed to end in divorce.

What do you mean? What marriages?

There are some marriages that you don't even need a Ketubah for becuase there is no possibility of divorce.

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Originally posted by Raybin:
There are some marriages that you don't even need a Ketubah for becuase there is no possibility of divorce.

Please give some examples.

Mental or physical disability, for instance.

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A husband must give the Get voluntarily; any undue pressure to do so may well render the Get invalid.

Would you please reconcile this with both the common understanding that there are times when a Beis Din will beat up a man who does not want to give his wife a divorce until he gives in and would rather give the divorce than keep getting beaten up -- isn't that undue pressure such that the Get is not being given completely voluntarily?

And the situation (in Bava Basra 3rd perek) in which where one knows that a bully is about to coerce him into making a sale, that he stipulates in front of witnesses or a Beis Din and writes out a contract that the sale contract he is about to sign will not be voluntary - that this is sufficient to knock out the subsequent sale. And without it, the involuntary sale is considered a good sale, even when it is known that it was coerced?

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Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

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Originally posted by Raybin:
There are some marriages that you don't even need a Ketubah for becuase there is no possibility of divorce.

Please give some examples.

Like when two people go into a marriage knowing that one is mentally or physically incapacitated.

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Originally posted by rob:

quote:

A husband must give the Get voluntarily; any undue pressure to do so may well render the Get invalid.

Would you please reconcile this with both the common understanding that there are times when a Beis Din will beat up a man who does not want to give his wife a divorce until he gives in and would rather give the divorce than keep getting beaten up -- isn't that undue pressure such that the Get is not being given completely voluntarily?

It is strange, I agree. However, I understand that what is happening is that the Beis Din are beating the husband's Yetzer Hora [evil inclination] out of him so that his Yetzer Tov will cause him to do the right thing, namely give his wife a Get. In other words, the husband wants to give a Get, but his Yetzer Hora is preventing this.

It fits in to what he writes "any undue pressure to do so may well render the Get invalid." What Beis Din does is not "undue."

http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org

http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums?a=frm&f=9291076782

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A husband must give the Get voluntarily; any undue pressure to do so may well render the Get invalid.

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It is strange, I agree. However, I understand that what is happening is that the Beis Din are beating the husband's Yetzer Hora [evil inclination] out of him so that his Yetzer Tov will cause him to do the right thing, namely give his wife a Get. In other words, the husband wants to give a Get, but his Yetzer Hora is preventing this

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It fits in to what he writes "any undue pressure to do so may well render the Get invalid." What Beis Din does is not "undue."

So under certain circumstances it is possible for a Beit Din to force a husband to give a Get and it is valid because the Beit is only doing what the husband really wants to do if it wasn't for his yetser hara.

It is funny that rather than using a Beit Din to solve the problem of a husband refusing to give a get some orthodox rabbis use a secular court and a secular document to solve the problem.
Why do we need Secular law to make Religous law work? Chazal dealt with problems in halacha with out involving secular law. Halacha is the law and the only law we need.

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It is funny that rather than using a Beit Din to solve the problem of a husband refusing to give a get some orthodox rabbis use a secular court and a secular document to solve the problem.
Why do we need Secular law to make Religous law work? Chazal dealt with problems in halacha with out involving secular law. Halacha is the law and the only law we need.

Because the Beis Din has no such powers in Chutz La'aretz.

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Because the Beis Din has no such powers in Chutz La'aretz.

True
That is one of the reasons making aliya should be encouraged and we should work at making Israel an Halachic State where Halacha will be the law and we won't have to rely on non halachic systems to solve halachic problems.

But even in Israel where the Beis Din does have some power to give punishments , many of the Rabbis are very reluctant to use this power. This causes many to turn to out side systems and forces.
And if the Get obtained ends up not being valid as a result of that, or an actual get is not obtained we end up having gilui arayot and mamzerim.