Which begs the question:

If G-d indeed intended us to not seek their good even if the Moabites were converts to Judaism, then why would G-d smile so broadly as it were upon Ruth, the Moabitess? And wouldn't Boaz have indeed broken the cammandment in that case when he approached her and sought to do well by her from his first meeting? G-d CLEARLY didn't punish him, because his son by her was in the Davidic line.

I think we need some clarification here.

I don't think this entry by any means nullifies what HaSh-m ordered, but it certainly leaves room for exception, don't you think?

The Gemora differentiates between male Moabites who may not marry Jews because they did not show gratitude and female Moabitesses who may marry Jews because the women were not expected to go out to great the Jews.
Therefore, Boaz did nothing wrong in marrying Rus.

The Pasuk only prohibited the males and not the female (Moavi V'Lo Moaviah)

I heard an explanation of Ploni's concern that even if the current Sanhedrin had ruled, a later Sanhedrin could overturn that ruling, and then his children through a Moabitess would be determined to have never been Jewish, and his marriage to her would have been determined to have never been proper.

What I don't understand about this is that if we follow our current rulings I would expect that we are doing what is right - listening to our rabbis.

And thus if there were to be a reconsideration on a major issue, I would think it would retroactively "grandfather" any situation which relied upon a valid authoritative ruling, even if that ruling was subsequently found to be wrong.

What are other ways to understand this dilemma, or how to rely upon any ruling?

Your right! Ploni was not concerned about his own aveira, rather he was concerned about the status of his children, as evident from the words he says in the pasuk Had a later Beis Din overturned the Sanhedrin's ruling he would not be liable, but his children would still be decedents of a Moabite and invalid to marry Jews. They would still be Jewish since their mother converted, and the Torah does not say that a Moabite may not convert, but rather they may not marry a Jew even after converting.

Wow, OK, let me get this straight:

Moabite WOMEN are Ok to marry, but if they have male children then the children are considered to be Moabite decendants and therefore are not Jewish, and if they are not Jewish then are prohibited to marry a Jew??
That doesn't sound right.

What about the prohibitions we have against differentiating between converts and non-converts? Isn't that a contradiction? Then, what about those poor children raised Jewish? Are they then, after having been raised Jewish expected to digress and marry goyim?

Please clarify. What were you explaining about the marriage not being considered valid in the first place, I think that is my point of misunderstanding.

Even still, that would put the male children in a tight spot because they would be neither goy nor Jewish, wouldn't it?

Yocheved

P.S. I have another concern for anyone whom may have the answer:
A friend of a friend of mine is a Kohein and is engaged to a Jewish girl. They are very deeplyu in love. She just found out that her mother was a convert when she was either late pregnancy or right after birth (can't remember which, I will have to call and ask) and the fatehr-in-law-to -be is upset because she is is prohibited to marry ( only her children can marry a Kohein.

I understand that this is one of those situations that is heart-breaking and a matter of the closest observation of the law, and whatever the beis din decide, obviously all will have to live with. My question is this, and perhaps it is out of line:
Given the fact that there a shrinking amount of observant, religious Jews left inthe world, should we get in the way of a marriage that we know is between two deeply observant Jewish people who will in all likelihood produce other observant children? We are in desperate times, and my question has to do with other laws that have recognized those issues (such as diaspora situation, no temple, etc.)? Thoughts please.
Shalom, Boker Erev,
Yocheved

quote:

P.S. I have another concern for anyone whom may have the answer:

It is my understanding that if she converted, even if just to remove doubt, that she is prohibitted to marry a Kohein.

If a Beis Din was involved in her case or her mother's case it should be clear to find out her actual status in this regard...

I suspect even if there were indications now that her mother was already Jewish when she was born that it would not overturn a prior decision that a conversion was necessary...

Which ties back in to the prior topic...

On what basis might a Sanhedrin overturn the ruling of a prior Sanhedrin upon which we relied?

The case in Yehoshua's time I think in the time of the incident of Binyamin where a Beis Din or perhaps the Sanhedrin ordered the death penalty for nearly a whole town (who had failed to show up as ordered or something) and that while harsh and extreme, was not beyond their authority, indicates that its orders / decisions are strong!

quote:

Moabite WOMEN are Ok to marry, but if they have male children then the children are considered to be Moabite decendants and therefore are not Jewish, and if they are not Jewish then are prohibited to marry a Jew??
That doesn't sound right.

Perhaps you can find some commentary on the Book of Ruth which better explains the details of what Boaz knew that Ploni was not familiar with? I am pretty sure its in footnotes within the Artscroll Megillas Ruth...

If I recall correctly, it says that a prior ruling of a Sanhedrin had been recently discovered.

Boaz being on the Sanhedrin was aware of it.

Ploni was either not aware of it, or was worried that it was a wrong decision that might be overturned.

In their time, given the ruling, a Moabitess was permitted to convert in, and marry, and her children, and other descendents, such as Dovid HaMelech, had no limitations upon them of any kind, compared to any other Jew who might be descended from a female convert.

However, if Ploni's concern was ever realized, then retroactively it could be that a Moabitess was not allowed to convert or marry, and therefore the conversion could not have worked, and therefore the children would be discovered to not be Jewish.

Perhaps grandchildren through male children would not have a problem with their Jewishness, but perhaps they'd have an even bigger problem!

And a matrilineal line through a Moabitess would in such a case not pass on Jewishness.

So I think its not so much that the descendents could later be considered Moabite so much as being children from an illigitimate marriage.

Perhaps I've helped clarify?

Or perhaps I've just come to a segue back to your other problem with your Kohein friend - that the consequence of an illigitimate marriage of a Kohein is that he loses any kahuna he had, and there may also be an additional problem to children from an impermissible marriage.


Is there a difference to a case where a Kohein chooses an impermissible marriage and willfully has children, and a case where a Kohein didn't realize that the Jewish woman he had married perhaps had been converted to remove doubt at birth and herself did not know?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

Moabite WOMEN are Ok to marry, but if they have male children then the children are considered to be Moabite decendants and therefore are not Jewish, and if they are not Jewish then are prohibited to marry a Jew??
That doesn't sound right.

In their time, given the ruling, a Moabitess was permitted to convert in, and marry, and her children, and other descendents, such as Dovid HaMelech, had no limitations upon them of any kind, compared to any other Jew who might be descended from a female convert.

However, if Ploni's concern was ever realized, then retroactively it could be that a Moabitess was not allowed to convert or marry, and therefore the conversion could not have worked, and therefore the children would be discovered to not be Jewish.

So I think its not so much that the descendents could later be considered Moabite so much as being children from an illigitimate marriage.

Perhaps I've helped clarify?

Excellent job Rob! As long as the Sanhedrin's decision stands there is no problem even for male descendants. However, had it been overturned all the children would be unable to marry Jews. They would, however, still be full-fledged Jews just like a mamzer is.

quote:

Perhaps you can find some commentary on the Book of Ruth which better explains the details of what Boaz knew that Ploni was not familiar with? I am pretty sure its in footnotes within the Artscroll Megillas Ruth...

The explanation that I remember is that Ploni was under the impression that the decision of the Sanhedrin was an original interpretation of the verse in the Torah, which could be overruled by a later Sanhedrin. Boaz, however, had a direct unbroken tradition that only male Moabites were forbidden, dating back to the oral tradition received by Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai.

Alright, that is perfetly clear, now it makes sense. Did anyone answer my question on the issue of my Kohein friend?

Their situation is really bothering me.