I know there are some members here who subscribe to the validity of the alleged codes and prognostications encoded in the actual script of the Torah. I am highly skeptical of this theory, even after being presented with "evidence". The Torah is a timeless document with boundless relevance; that goes without saying. However, using the Torah as a fortune-telling device strikes me as not only inappropriate, but also dangerous. It diminishes the immense spiritual profundity that can be gleaned from our Holy book.

The Rambam warned us that an overly literal interpretation of Torah can result in a material conception of HaShem. I see Torah code studies as leading down this path. Aside from the fact that the experiments Torah scholars use strike me as severely confounded (if you removed the vowels from Moby Dick and searched for cognate words in other languages in all directions, I suspect you would find similar results), the practice seems very much against traditional Jewish wisdom.

Is the whole Torah code craze kosher? Is it healthy for Judaism at large?

Our Sages have long known that the Torah is written in Code. In fact, what we know as Written Torah is only the medium for the real Torah. The underlying code is the purpose for which the Torah was transmitted. Our Sages have always had gematria and beyond. However, the newly discovered codes are a red herring. They can be a hit or miss and are not in keeping with our tradition. If one wants to learn Torah codes properly, one has to learn them through tradition...from gematria to kabbala. As long as we try to learn some Torah innovation outside of our tradition, we are looking for trouble. There is no getting around learning Torah in order to know the "codes".

Shalom Avi,

This is probably my ignorance on the matter talking, but are you able to explain the differences between these real codes that you speak of and the red-herring codes that appear in popular culture? From what I know about the pop-culture codes, they are simply modern words and names that appear in any direction (up, down, backwards, diagonally, etc.) translated into Hebrew. Searching for these torah codes is an exercise in literal-thinking. Kaballa strikes me as more conceptual, deeper.

The "new found" Torah codes are a result of statistical algorithms. They work only a very small part of the time. The real gematria and kabbala go way beyond that.

Think of the letters of Torah as a skeleton upon which the (invisible) codes are suspended, above and below each letter and on either side of each letter and between the lines etc. The written letters function as the skeleton for the codes of Torah. These cannot be learned using statistical algorithms. One has to be a Chacham to even begin to understnad them. Along with the Maddona kabbala, the statistical algorithms just give a glimpse into Torah and gives some people reason to pursue Torah in earnest. But beyond that, they are nothing but a curio. They cannot replace Torah and kabbala learning.

quote:

Aside from the fact that the experiments Torah scholars use strike me as severely confounded (if you removed the vowels from Moby Dick and searched for cognate words in other languages in all directions, I suspect you would find similar results), the practice seems very much against traditional Jewish wisdom.

You are correct. If you took Shakespere and played around with the words and letter you may find all kinds of amazing things by chance. That doesn't make Shakespere by any means holy.

quote:

However, the newly discovered codes are a red herring

true. Our TORA is holy and the absolute truth but not because of these new found codes.

Here's an article from Aish Hatorah "Bible Codes - The Real Story".

http://www.aish.com/seminars/discovery/Codes/jcode1.htm

Regarding the hypothetical random codes within Shakespere, that probably doesn't match the skip sequence patterns found with most Torah codes.

The striking encoding of the date of the Nuremburg trials within the small letters of Megilas Esther is quite an impressive code that Aish and other places have published about.

A common theme of some Torah codes is finding names and words written by various skip sequences. Using software database techniques I once considered a way of computing all possible words of various lengths found by all possible skip sequences, and making a database of what words or names are found at whatever starting point and whichever skip sequence.

Such a database would be useful to determining if a given coded phrase with a name in it can also be found with a different name.

There was a discovery of a code listing a prime minister and his killer with the verb for kill. I would be interested to find out if a similar phrase listing the same prime minister's name and a name of someone else and the same verb could be found by any skip sequence technique.

If there are plenty such names of non-killers found, then perhaps that discovered phrase is not all that significant. But if no other such phrases are found with any other names at any other skip sequence, then it is indeed quite a discovery!

There is of course a known total number of letters in Chumash. Thus treating the entire stream of letters as a single word or name would occur only once in the entire Torah. And treating each letter as a 1-letter word, there would be a limit of the total number of such 1-letter words as possible names. And everything in between. It is computable, and should be a useful project to end the debate.

Chaim:

I also hear that hair spray can be used to get ink stains out of shirts--but that hardly the intended use.

THere has been a great deal of information and misinformation on the subject of the coding. Actually, the "decoding" or cyphering methods HAVE been used on MOBY DICK and similar results have occurred. It did not occur using several otehr books which were tried. Sadly, many xtains came to the ridiculous conclusion that Moby Dick, TOO, must be holy and divinely inspired, (OY GEVALT!)

I have no doubt that there are many incredible secrets to behold and yes, even to unfold within the pages of our divine gift of Torah...but not in playing crosswords with it. I think things like this are best treated in the like manner as we treat one saying "The moshiach is here! The moshiach is here!" We first finish planting our tree and seeing to its welfare, and THEN go and see if it is he. In other words--this, like all other "new" things which seem to completely reinterpret Torah, should be held at arm's length and with a healthy dose of skepticism. I for one, think that your first reaction is the best one. As to whether it is "kosher" or not-- I think it is likely not kosher only because it takes one's attention off of Torah itself, and onto what kind of witchcraft and crystal ball imagery we can squeeze out of it. Anything that takes one out of the realm of faith and into the realm of divination is treyfe in my opinion, but I am no Rabbi. It is only my own conscience speaking.
Shalom.
Yocheved

Yocheved, did you read the link I posted above?

Sam, no sir I did not, I will read it and get back to you. I received only the opening question on my email notices and my response was based upon that.

QUOTE FROM AFOREMENTIONED ARTICLE:

Furthermore, the numerical value of the Hebrew word 'Klala' - curse - is 165. 'Yeshua' is encoded 7 times in the Torah at a jump of 165. The numerical value of the word "Maysit" - one who leads astray - is 510. 'Yeshua' is encoded 11 times in the Torah at a jump of 510. The numerical value of the word 'Shakran' - liar - is 650. 'Yeshua' is encoded 16 times in the Torah at a jump of 650.

If this methodology is valid, then these counter "codes" should obligate the Pastor to accept their theological implications-especially since they were found using his method of codes research.

Rambsel and Jeffrey's "codes methodology" produces illogical, contradictory, and absurd results and are, therefore, meaningless. To publish books, whose aim is to convince people that the Bible contains "Yeshua codes" that prove or confirm specific Christian beliefs when, in fact, these "codes" are coincidental patterns, is dishonest. To promote a methodology that "proves" that Jesus is the Messiah, without revealing that the same methodology yields codes that "prove" he is not the Messiah, would be deceitful, were it deliberate.
END QUOTE

HAHAHAHA! I thought this was GREAT!

Great article, Sam; that cleared up some stuff for me. But I am still a little confused. The author of the article makes the following assertion:

"The legitimate Codes in the Torah can accomplish one thing and nothing else: They can validate the hypothesis that the author of the Torah is not human. Any statement or interpretation beyond this is inherently speculative. Regarding the "Famous Rabbis" example, the only conclusion or "interpretation" one can reach is that the author of the Torah deliberately encoded those words. A statement such as, "these Codes prove that we should follow those Rabbis and the Jewish religion," is simply not true."

Therefore, according to this author, the Torah code phenomena has very narrow parameters of usefulness: to further establish the Divine origin of Torah. In that sense, authentic codes are not tools at all, but rather, statistical affirmations of faith (like artifacts are to religiously conscious biblical archaeologists). They're "curios", as Avi put it in one of his posts. Little to no profound, conceptual relevance can be gleaned from these types of codes, save for the "wow factor" (which we all crave, I know).

Sam, OK I read the article. I don't know what you were trying to point out, however. I was impressed by how much detail is in encryption as a science (I dont' know why--there is ALWAYS more to a subject than I ever realized) but over all I found that I am back to the spot where I was originally, albeit a little better informed.

It comes to the conclusion that the only thing we can see for certain as proof is that the Torah had non-human authorship--no offense, but I would hardly spend my life studying it if I hadn't already come to that conclusion on my own.

As for the other information, I think it only re-establishes what I said earlier. It is great that there are certain things in there code-wise, but as even the author said, there are no messages. I think that is perfectly fine, because the Torah IS THE MESSAGE. HaSh-m did not make His message obscure, to the peril of men. THere is One G-d, etc. Yet, you can search Him out into the depths as far as your understanding will take you...

By the way--I did think the article was well, articulate, no pun intended, and I thought it was thorough and scholarly. I appreciated it very much. Thanks for posting it.

It was a very well written and informative article. But I agree with you, Yocheved; I'm still not sure how we can use Torah codes. I have seen many Jews assert that some current event or phenomena is biblically significant because it is referred to (or "encoded") in some part of the Torah. This is clearly using the Torah as a tool for divination. And does it not also go against the prohibition against sorcery? Can a person, even a highly learned Rabbi, use the Torah as a way to tease out clues about future events?

QUOTE CHAIM: This is clearly using the Torah as a tool for divination. And does it not also go against the prohibition against sorcery? Can a person, even a highly learned Rabbi, use the Torah as a way to tease out clues about future events? END QUOTE

Precisely. I would further argue, that even if we could tell the future through using information there encoded, we would likewise be forbidden from doing so for the reasons you just pointed out.