Someone told me that women are not allowed to sing - why is this and what are the Torah on it?

Dov

Who were the Sirens in the Oedipus myth?

Dov,
Women are allowed to sing. It's just that men are not allowed to listen to them. Basically the idea is that kol isha, the voice of woman, is part of her nakedness and so a man is not supposed to listen. There are lots of different rulings on this. Some Gedolim allow people to sing in a corale fashion where voices of women are not distinguishable from those of men etc. It's a big subject and needs the treatment of a posek and expert in this area. The Sephardim and Teimani also have different traditions concerning singing by women. Some follow the Rambam, whose ruling had to do with the effects of a woman singing rather than the act of a woman singing itself etc.

quote:

...The Sephardim and Teimani also have different traditions concerning singing by women. Some follow the Rambam, whose ruling had to do with the effects of a woman singing rather than the act of a woman singing itself etc.

Moshe, I lost you on this one. Could you explain what you meant here?

As for the original question, we find this statement in the Talmud:
"A woman's voice is tantamount to her nakedness."(Berakhoth 23b) קול באשה ערוה
(This refers to the man who willfully and attentively listens to a woman whom he knows while she is singing.)
We find a similar teaching with regard to womens' hair.
As for a woman's voice, there's no question about it, that for a female vocalist to sing in public (among mixed crowds) is not acceptable, neither modest. However, it is permitted for a female vocalist to sing among women folk. Furthermore, the Rabbis have said that a woman's voice (in singing) is tantamount to her nakedness. Yet, most Rabbis would agree that this applies only to when you know her personally.
Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

It’s prohibited to sing in front of men (that is not her father, brother, son, husband (when she’s not a Nidah.) This is considered immodest and especially one is not allowed to say things of Torah or prayers when he hears woman singing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila,

David,
I'm not sure whether the people at Mechon Mamre are Teimani or not, but I once had a discourse with them and was told that a man may listen to woman's voice whether speaking or singing as long as he is not aroused. If he is aroused, whether she is just talking or singing, then he must leave the situation. It seemed that this approach put the responsibility solely on the man rather than the woman. In the Sephardic community I still haven't figured it out because I see women singing from time to time and I haven't had the chutzpa to ask why?
The exception you make on whether the listener knows the singer personally is just another example of the rulings out there. Barbara Streisand is a Jew but I don't know her personally. David, are you saying it would be okay for me to attend her concert?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Dov,
Women are allowed to sing. It's just that men are not allowed to listen to them.

Follow-up question:

It seems to me that we put a lot of restrictions on women because of what men might or might not do or think.

In this case it is said that the man is not allowed to listen - yet my question sprung out of a situation where a woman could not enjoy a link with Jewish music, because her son and husband might overhear and be in violation of the Law.

Isn't about time we, the men, grew up and learn how to focus on what is important to us, intead of 'using women' to put up the fence for us?

Dov

Dov,
I used to feel the way you do, but in time I concluded the sages had to be right. Both men and women have responsibilities in tzniut. It's not as one sided as you make it seem. Women have to be modest in dress, speech etc. Men cannot listen to them sing.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Dov,
I used to feel the way you do, but in time I concluded the sages had to be right. Both men and women have responsibilities in tzniut. It's not as one sided as you make it seem. Women have to be modest in dress, speech etc. Men cannot listen to them sing.

Thanks for dialoguing with me Moshe Yisraeli!

Yes, I agree, that both men and women are responsible for their own conduct - the problem I see is that men's conduct are automatically connected to women's conduct or to the possible sexual connotations of the same - not the other way around - it is f.i not prohibited for a woman to listen to a man sing, because it might arouse her. A woman is not expected to be modest in dress and speech for her own sake but because if she isn't it might 'stir' the men.

I realize that the Sages put those restrictions in for a reason - to me that reason is pretty clear - so men would not be sexually 'tempted', 'aroused' and thus 'forget their duty to Torah' or something far worse and far more un-G-dly. This does in fact make women responsible for men's sexuality and sexual conduct. The Sages might be right, but it doesn't make it 'right' if you understand what I am saying here. If those prohibitions were in place for BOTH genders - then I would have no problem with them.

If I cannot focus on studying Torah even if there's a woman singing right next to me or for that matter dancing naked on the table right next to me - then I am indeed a bad Torah student and need to focus on how to focus and not be distracted by personal body parts. lol!

Dov

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
It’s prohibited to sing in front of men (that is not her father, brother, son, husband (when she’s not a Nidah.) This is considered immodest and especially one is not allowed to say things of Torah or prayers when he hears woman singing.

You're saying that it is forbidden for a husband to hear his wife sing when she is NOT a niddah? What's the difference whether she is or not, she is still his wife?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Who were the Sirens in the Oedipus myth?

What does this have to do with whether a woman is allowed or not?

What about spoken words where she is not singing? I've been told that if it "doesn't turn you on" then it is okay.

quote:

Originally posted by Dov:
If I cannot focus on studying Torah even if there's a woman singing right next to me or for that matter dancing naked on the table right next to me - then I am indeed a bad Torah student and need to focus on how to focus and not be distracted by personal body parts. lol!

Are you an Angel, or at least aspiring to be one? I don't know about you, but I'm a human being and the quite rightly Rabbis realised that people like me have weaknesses and can easily be distracted.

quote:

Are you an Angel, or at least aspiring to be one? I don't know about you, but I'm a human being and the quite rightly Rabbis realised that people like me have weaknesses and can easily be distracted.

Oh, be assured that I too have my weaknesses - they just don't 'cover' this particular area.
I have been known to not even register that my own wife was trying to 'get my attention' - There are other things that are more likely to distract me such as the TV or the children (not my own) playing in the yard out-side or as was discussed earlier in another thread - a pretty sunset or furious storm. But not the 'nakedness of a female'.

I overall think both the Sages and we as a society are putting far too much 'attention' on the matter of sex and what might lead to it.

It is more or less assumed that a male, given the chance, will be unfaithful to his wife. I am sorry, but I am not some kind of animal that has to respond to every urge my private parts may have, nor am I devided in my committments to one spouse so that I can even contemplate flirting or having sex with another woman.

We are all different.

Dov

B"H
Moshe, Shalom!

"A woman's voice is tantamount to her nakedness."(Berakhoth 24a)

You asked if a man can attend a live, Barabara Streisand concert. From what I have always understood, it's enough for a man to see her sing in person for him to fall under the category of "knowing her personally." I think the distinction was made when a man heard a cassette tape, or CD, of a female vocalist whom he has never met before. In this case, he could listen to her music. Even so, Yeshiva students are mostly wary about listening to a female vocalist, even when played on a tape recorder, and will usually not do so. (You may wish to consult several Rabbeim about this prohibition, and ask them personally. I'm really not an expert on this subject. What I told you, I heard the same from my Rabbi and Mentor.)

As for "Machon Mamre," I've been told that they are not Teimanim, although they base their own texts of Rambam on old, Yemenite handwritten manuscripts - with only slight variations of spelling. It seems to me that they feared infringing upon copyright laws, and basically copied the Yemenite MS. by adding superfluous letters to words not found in the original text.

Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

quote:

with only slight variations of spelling.

I understand that they defend that their unique spellings as legitimate and authentic. I saw a second hand email when one or more misspellings was brought to their attention. Do you have a pointer to something which describes it this way?

Is it proper to deviate from authentic spelling for purposes other than protecting someone from inadvertently erasing Hashem's holy name?

quote:

Originally posted by Dov

Oh, be assured that I too have my weaknesses - they just don't 'cover' this particular area.
I have been known to not even register that my own wife was trying to 'get my attention' - There are other things that are more likely to distract me such as the TV or the children (not my own) playing in the yard out-side or as was discussed earlier in another thread - a pretty sunset or furious storm. But not the 'nakedness of a female'.

I overall think both the Sages and we as a society are putting far too much 'attention' on the matter of sex and what might lead to it.

It is more or less assumed that a male, given the chance, will be unfaithful to his wife. I am sorry, but I am not some kind of animal that has to respond to every urge my private parts may have, nor am I devided in my committments to one spouse so that I can even contemplate flirting or having sex with another woman.

We are all different.

Dov

Shlomo Hamelech thought as you did too, and therefore felt that the prohibition of taking too many wives did not apply to him. Turned out even he was wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
I understand that they defend that their unique spellings as legitimate and authentic. I saw a second hand email when one or more misspellings was brought to their attention. Do you have a pointer to something which describes it this way?

Rob,
I have seen the authentic Yemenite texts of Rambam's "Yad" (Code of Jewish Law). It has been printed by Rabbi Yoseph Qafih, z"l. Unfortunately, those at "Machon Mamre" took the extant Yemenite manuscripts and added superflous letters to the original text in order not to infringe upon copyright laws.
I suggest you look at R. Yoseph Qafih's "Mishne Torah" of Maimonides for an accurate copy.
David

What copyright laws when it comes to Torah? And why add superflous letters? Can you explain the issue at hand?

To bring in another question. My wife and I were wondering about the Halacha regarding a woman singing behind a mekhitza when her voice could be heard but she could not be seen?

She often finds it frustrating that we men will sing and dance freely on our side of the mekhitza but the women's section seems a bit dead.