quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:
i read somewhere that milk and meat towels should be washed separately with at least one non-food laden load between them.

I have never heard of such a thing. Can anyone give a proper source?

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
The eggs are a different problem, which I’m still trying to find a Makor why we need it.

"it" being what please?

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Originally posted by April:
As we all are aware, by a leniency, the pots, pans, etc. are only considered to transfer flavors within a day of use, anyway. We are today, of course, strict.

It is not a "leniency" it is the Halacha. In general a taste becomes "pagum" [spoiled] after 24 hours and therefore cannot make permitted food forbidden.

There is, however, a stringency in that we only say this after the fact ["B'dieved"]. In the first instance one may not cook meat in (say) a milky pot that had not been used for 24 hours. Only if one did so accidentally is the food permitted. The pot, of course, must be kashered in any event.

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There is, however, a stringency in that we only say this after the fact ["B'dieved"]. In the first instance one may not cook meat in (say) a milky pot that had not been used for 24 hours. Only if one did so accidentally is the food permitted.

How is it that the lack of kavanah (intent) matters here? Can you explain the dynamics here, i.e., the logic which permits in this case.

There are different types of mixtures of permitted and forbidden foods and they have different Laws.

Dry solids of the same kind (eg. 3 eggs, one of which is not kosher but you don't know which) go after the majority. If there is 51% permitted against 49% forbidden, then all of it is permitted (whether the same person can eat the whole lot is another question).

Liquids of the same kind (eg. kosher and non-kosher gravy) go after the majority as far as the Torah is concerned, but the Rabbis stipulated that there must be 60 times the permitted than the forbidden.

Foods of a different kind go after taste. If you can taste the forbidden food that is mixed in the permitted food, then it is forbidden. Nowadays we don't rely on taste (when we did, we would give it to a non-Jew to taste) but on 1/60.

According to the Talmud, one may not deliberately nullify a forbidden food in a permitted food. For example, one would not be allowed to put a drop of 1cc of milk in 60cc of meaty gravy. There is a dispute about whether this is a Torah Law or from the Rabbis.

Otherwise, however, accidents are not penalised and we go after the majority or 1/60 depending on the mixture, the logic being that such mixtures are actually kosher as I have explained.

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According to the Talmud, one may not deliberately nullify a forbidden food in a permitted food. For example, one would not be allowed to put a drop of 1cc of milk in 60cc of meaty gravy. There is a dispute about whether this is a Torah Law or from the Rabbis.

What is the rule about if its a 1 part in 30 problem, can he add 30 more parts of the 30 to make it 1 part in 60 (61?) so that it is safe?

Or is he required to dispose of the 31 parts and start fresh if he notices the problem at that stage?

According to the Shulchan Aruch he may not do this, but if it accidentally happened then the food is now permitted.

According to the Rama (Rabbi Moshe Issserlis), however, the 31 parts are now a piece of forbidden food and you would therefore need a further 60 times that to permit it.

The question of whether knowledge at any particular stage is relevant is a matter of debate among the poskim.

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According to the Shulchan Aruch he may not do this, but if it accidentally happened then the food is now permitted.

If it's an Isuur D'RAbannon, the SHulcho Arech Paskins that it's permitted to add L'Chatchila. Rama disagrees on this point too. See YD 99:6.

If it accidently happened, then even the Shulchon Arech would only allow the liquid portion of the mixture, but the solid portion would remain Ussur. See YD 106:1.

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According to the Rama (Rabbi Moshe Issserlis), however, the 31 parts are now a piece of forbidden food and you would therefore need a further 60 times that to permit it.

If there would be a big loss, the RAma would permit a completely liquid mixture. See YD 92:4

Quote ""it" being what please?"

Needing to cook 3 eggs when you cook eggs. Do you have a Makor?



Quote "

i read somewhere that milk and meat towels should be washed separately with at least one non-food laden load between them.



I have never heard of such a thing. Can anyone give a proper source?"

If you don’t say the detergent is Pogem it and if there is a doubt maybe there wasn’t sixty, so now you have to worry about actual Bliyos (absorbtion.) Then I can understand that you run a cycle in between to do Hagalah on it. Even though the water doesn’t boil, there those that say Hagalah only needs the greatest temperature that he used the utensil in (K’Bolo Kach Polto, the same way it came in it would get it out.) You would also need to make sure the water is a litlle higher level than it was before, to make sure you get all the places.



Quote "Dry solids of the same kind (eg. 3 eggs, one of which is not kosher but you don't know which) go after the majority. "



Eggs, since they are always sold by count, are never Batul. See Rama YD 110:1 (Shach is more Machmer and hold that even if it sometimes sold by count, its not Butul. The Michaber says its Butal, so The S’fardim are allowed to eat it.)

Quote "If there is 51% permitted against 49% forbidden, then all of it is permitted"

This is an argument in Pischai Teshuva 109:1 that the Pri Chadush agrees with your statement, while the Minchas Yaakov hold that you need (from a rabinical decree) double amount of the permitted more than the forbidden to permit it by Torah Issurim.



Quote "Otherwise, however, accidents are not penalised and we go after the majority or 1/60 depending on the mixture, the logic being that such mixtures are actually kosher as I have explained."

But cooking in a pot that is not a ben Yoma (used within 24 hours), doesn’t get penalized to prohibit it, even if done on purpose. Even to make something Batul on purpose is only prohibited to himself and to those he made it specifically for.

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
If you don’t say the detergent is Pogem it and if there is a doubt maybe there wasn’t sixty, so now you have to worry about actual Bliyos (absorbtion.) Then I can understand that you run a cycle in between to do Hagalah on it. Even though the water doesn’t boil, there those that say Hagalah only needs the greatest temperature that he used the utensil in (K’Bolo Kach Polto, the same way it came in it would get it out.) You would also need to make sure the water is a litlle higher level than it was before, to make sure you get all the places.

With respect, I think a bit of a reality check is needed here. First of all, any deteregent is bound to be pogem. Secondly, I don't know about you but we use dish towels to dry CLEAN dishes so what Issur are we talking about. And if even a tiny bit of food remained on the plate and was transferred to the towel, it is bound to be nullified in 60 when washed because presumably you can take all the other laundry into account as Heter.

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Eggs, since they are always sold by count, are never Batul. See Rama YD 110:1 (Shach is more Machmer and hold that even if it sometimes sold by count, its not Butul. The Michaber says its Butal, so The S’fardim are allowed to eat it.)

I used eggs as an example as that is what the Gemora in Beitza uses to demonstrate the Halacha of a "Davar Sh'Yeish Lo Matirin" (something which is forbidden now but will, after a time and with little or no human intervention, become permitted). Rashi says that eggs are nullified in the majority.

Nowadays, of course, eggs are bought only by number and never by weight, so the Halacha is as you have written

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Quote "If there is 51% permitted against 49% forbidden, then all of it is permitted"

This is an argument in Pischai Teshuva 109:1 that the Pri Chadush agrees with your statement, while the Minchas Yaakov hold that you need (from a rabinical decree) double amount of the permitted more than the forbidden to permit it by Torah Issurim.

He also brings the Pri Megadim that one who goes like the Pri Chadash shouldn't be chastised.

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Quote "Otherwise, however, accidents are not penalised and we go after the majority or 1/60 depending on the mixture, the logic being that such mixtures are actually kosher as I have explained."

But cooking in a pot that is not a ben Yoma (used within 24 hours), doesn’t get penalized to prohibit it, even if done on purpose. Even to make something Batul on purpose is only prohibited to himself and to those he made it specifically for.

Precisely. As far as I am concerned, someone else who deliberately made forbidden food Batul has nothing to do with me; it's "accidental" as far as I am concerned as I had nothing to do with it.

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Eggs, since they are always sold by count, are never Batul. See Rama YD 110:1 (Shach is more Machmer and hold that even if it sometimes sold by count, its not Butul. The Michaber says its Butal, so The S’fardim are allowed to eat it.)

Not according to the Kaf HaChayim. He says (110 SK 23) that even the Mechaber would agree that nowadays eggs are always bought by number and are therefore never Batul. He bases this on (inter alia) what the Mechaber writes in Siman 86:3.

So I'm afraid you Sefardim would seem to be out of luck!

Eggs in the US are still sold by weight. The weight is used to determine how they are graded and each dozen of eggs has to weigh a certain weight per dozen per grade. So if you want a dozen of large eggs they have to weigh a certain amount of weight to be consedered "large" eggs.
About us Sepharadim being out of luck; I'm not so sure.

The point is that you ask to buy a dozen large/medium/small eggs. It is by number. What defines a large etc. egg is a different matter but not, it seems to me, relevant here.

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With respect, I think a bit of a reality check is needed here. First of all, any deteregent is bound to be pogem. Secondly, I don't know about you but we use dish towels to dry CLEAN dishes so what Issur are we talking about. And if even a tiny bit of food remained on the plate and was transferred to the towel, it is bound to be nullified in 60 when washed because presumably you can take all the other laundry into account as Heter

I brought these things down in an earlier post. I was just saying on the bases, as I wrote in the beginning of the post, if you don't have any thing Pogem and you have doubts of 60, then I can give an explanation for this.

About "any deteregent is bound to be pogem." I don't know the Metzious of all detergents, but I heard from RAv Belsky that people are too lenient on what they say that any detergent is Pogem.

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He also brings the Pri Megadim that one who goes like the Pri Chadash shouldn't be chastised

Yes, but the implications that someone shouldn't rely on it and that's how one should PAskin. If you see an individual that's going to partake in such a Heter, you shouldn't chastise him.

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Precisely. As far as I am concerned, someone else who deliberately made forbidden food Batul has nothing to do with me; it's "accidental" as far as I am concerned as I had nothing to do with it.

If he made it for you, it's also Ussur for you. But if someone cooks in a Ben Yoma pot on purpose, it's not only permitted to the one he cooked for, but also for himself. This is becaise the problem is not Bitul, but maybe you'll come to cook in a pot that's a Ben yoma.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
About "any deteregent is bound to be pogem." I don't know the Metzious of all detergents, but I heard from RAv Belsky that people are too lenient on what they say that any detergent is Pogem.

I would think that there is a distinction between detergents used for washing clothes and washing dishes in a dishwasher, which are almost certainly inedible and so are pogem, and washing up liquid which (as I heard from Rav Feldman of the Golders Green Beis HaMedrash ("Munks" Shul) may well not be pogem.

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If he made it for you, it's also Ussur for you. But if someone cooks in a Ben Yoma pot on purpose, it's not only permitted to the one he cooked for, but also for himself. This is becaise the problem is not Bitul, but maybe you'll come to cook in a pot that's a Ben yoma.

Do you mean he cooks in an "Eino Ben Yoma pot"?

Quote "I would think that there is a distinction between detergents used for washing clothes and washing dishes in a dishwasher, which are almost certainly inedible and so are pogem"

It’s possible, and I’m not aware of the Metzios. But just because it’s inedible doesn’t automatically Pogem. It would depend on the concentration in the many gallons of water. Dishwashing soap is not edible either (ask any cheeky kid ) but just being mixed with it doesn’t make it inedible since it may be diluted enough to not be considered "Pogem L’Gamri".

Quote "Do you mean he cooks in an "Eino Ben Yoma pot"?"

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim

Dishwashing soap is not edible either (ask any cheeky kid ) but just being mixed with it doesn’t make it inedible since it may be diluted enough to not be considered "Pogem L’Gamri".

Can one say that just like by the Halachos of Pesach that certain items if it is not edible for a dog, then it is not edible for consumption, and thus it is not Chometz, that only such food would make it inedible also rest of the year?

The Torah tells us to give Neveila (a kosher animal that died other than by Shechita) to a non-Jew. From this the Sages learned that only food fit to be eaten by a non-Jew is considered Neveila. There, if food is totally inedible it is permitted.

There is a second Din, which is that any permitted food that has mixed in with it other food (inedible or edible) that causes the permitted food to be bad tasting ("Nosein Ta'am Lif'gam") then the food is permitted.

There are a lot more details that I won't go into here, but the bottom line is that if the detergent does give a bad taste to utensils that may have absorbed forbidden food (e.g. meat and milk) then if those utensils are then used for some other permitted food, the food is not rendered Assur, forbidden. The utensils will still have to be kashered if they have a forbidden food absorbed in them.

Yisroel;
Some people have perverted enough tastebuds and might like the tase of soapy stake...

Over here, like R’ Yisrael says, it depends on human consumption. If it loses it, it’s considered not fit for a Ger. By Chumeitz, since it doesn't have to be edible, since the Torah forbids Su’or (sour bread) so the criteria is, as long as it’s able to make other dough Chumeitz it's prohibited. When it gets below edible for dogs, then it becomes like dirt, thus it’s permitted