What does the Torah say about the right of anyone in the Community to silence any voice or any subject raised in good faith. A thread on marriage was killed because it was in some way "improper".

What subject under G-d could be improper if the participants in that discussion seek truth and to know the true path?

For the record, I feel that there was nothing inappropriate about ANY of the posts in the marriage thread and that the Rav erred in killing the thread.

/s/ Mark

Mark;
I think you need to chill a little. In my line of work the subjects we were discussing are part of a day's work. I am compelled to come up with solutions. This is not the crazy world, it's yeshiva and the Rav can and should be able to set the agenda. When I made my posts they were really intended to stimulate discussion. I had hoped that someone would have said "Moshe that's not how we do things; here is the Gemara for it and here are the rulings" so we would all learn. Although that opportunity was missed, I would still stand with the Rav on this one. This blog is his baby and he should be able to do whatever he wants with it. I'm just honored to be a part of it.
Moshe

Moshe

I appreciate your position and respect the intent of this Community. And still, is it not true that even the best intentioned of us can be wrong and is it not the responsibility of those of us with understanding and good will to raise at least the question of error so that the error can be corrected. Where does it say in Torah that this one is always right and this one is necessarily not?

When I am the leader of a project or a job or a group or a discussion, or when I hold beliefs or opinions that are contrary to fact or to the legitamate opinion of someone who is compassionate or well intentioned, should they not bring to my attention the chance that I am in error. Or the chance that there are other equally valid views worthy of consideration.

If this is a subject - whether censorship is a valid approach to discussing Torah, or for that matter, whether by definition rabbis are incapable of errors in judgment or at least may have points of view that are valid but not the only valid point of view - which is truely invalid and damages the Community by being raised, then by all means I will take down the thread.

Or the Rav is welcome to end it here and now, just as he did the previous thread that is at issue.

And then at least I will have an answer to my question

/s/ Mark

When you have learned Torah for as long as and at the level that Rabbi Mitterhoff has, then maybe (just maybe) you might be in a position to say he erred. Until then, however, let's just leave it that you don't understand Rabbi Mitterhoff's action.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baraz:
What does the Torah say about the right of anyone in the Community to silence any voice or any subject raised in good faith.

You ask a question and, without waiting for an answer, say

quote:

that the Rav erred in killing the thread.

and you know what i know how? and is it not true that a child may know the truth directly?

you are I fear, a zealot and a true believer, and we are a people who survive by thinking for ourselves.

Mark

No; we are a people who have survived by our adherence to the Torah. What other way is there?

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baraz:
and you know what i know how? and is it not true that a child may know the truth directly?

you are I fear, a zealot and a true believer, and we are a people who survive by thinking for ourselves.

Mark

Can you clarify what you're trying to say? (Or is it only me who doesn't understand)

quote:

Originally posted by sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baraz:
and you know what i know how? and is it not true that a child may know the truth directly?

you are I fear, a zealot and a true believer, and we are a people who survive by thinking for ourselves.

Mark

Can you clarify what you're trying to say? (Or is it only me who doesn't understand)

If you don't understand what he is saying you should count yourself blessed that you mind is occupied with daas tora. The premise is, and has been that of the second son of the pesach seder. And responses should be in the manner prescribed for the #2 sun until he reaches the level of numbers 4 and 3. Then you can attempt to fill him with daas v'tzidkas as the first son. Exile was commanded to mitzraim for four hundred years. The four sons represent the four levels of depth of distance from Torah. We must work and daven to bring all yidden back, but it must be al pi darcho. Which does not simply mean the way of their choosing but also their capabilities.

quote:

Originally posted by sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baraz:
and you know what i know how? and is it not true that a child may know the truth directly?

you are I fear, a zealot and a true believer, and we are a people who survive by thinking for ourselves.

Mark

Can you clarify what you're trying to say? (Or is it only me who doesn't understand)

I well understand what he is trying to say; it is that he does not recognise the authority of the Torah and those who are learned in it.

I thank G-d that I am a "true believer"!

Baruch Hashem! I too am a TRUE BELIEVER!!! Any one else out there that is a part of the team?

Mk Fink, like you said, one needs to respond in the manner that which the questioner addresses the question. Hopefully more will see the light etc.

Yes, it is really quite simple. The Torah has been studied and interpeted by well meaning scholars and religious and not so religious Jews for thousands of years.

I am not now, nor could any reasonable person have read my observations as commenting on the validity of the Torah. That is well beyond my own personal hubris.

What I do know is that it has been the binding and uniting truth of a tradition that I revere and respect.

What I find shocking here is the notion that someone "knows" apriori that this person "understands Torah correctly" and that this person does not. To be able to assert that, one would be claiming to know the mind of G-d.

Is there anyone here that is actually willing to make that claim flat out. If so, I respectfully request an offer of proof.

Absent that, your opinion is simply that, your opinion. When G-d gives and you sit a test on Torah and get a better grade than the person you are saying does not know his a~~ from a hole in the ground, than by all means let me know.


I am shocked - and I mean that literally - that an honest inquiry in the context of a Community dedicated to the discovery and invesetigation of G-d's truth should have devolved into name calling and the attribution to me of entirely unfounded claim that I am challenging the value and truth of Torah.

No, my friend, it is the abilty of any man, much less someone here, to claim to know better than any one else here, what is in the mind of G-d or what Torah truely means.

Torah is to be discovered. If it were actually a simple, definitive, declaritive statement of obvious "fact" or "natural law", similar to a mathamatical proof or say, the physics of gravity, them hundreds of thousands of Jews would have wasted millions of hours in study of something obvious.


Do, do not be so quick to imagine you know what I mean, or what my intentions are and please do not be so quick to judge whose side G-d is on or who are the truely observant among us, or the truely Jewish.

Can you clarify what you're trying to say? (Or is it only me who doesn't understand)[/QUOTE]

I well understand what he is trying to say; it is that he does not recognise the authority of the Torah and those who are learned in it.

I thank G-d that I am a "true believer"![/QUOTE]

This would all be very pertinant in Moment magazine, the New York Times or any other place that is not dedicated to the furtherance of orthdox Jewish study. Like all forensic forums there is a set of ground rules.
Instead of arguing the topic at hand; you are arguing the validity of the ground rules. That is not how it works. To use a metaphor "IT'S OUR BALLFIELD, OUR BAT, OUR GLOVES AND OUR BALL". If you want to discuss the validity of torah, mesorah, torah study, torah wisdom there are many places where you can go to debate things that we take for granted. We are true believers. And proud of it.

There really is a reading problem here and this is the last I will respond to this. I am doing none of the above. All I am doing is question your infallibility. Not that of Torah, yours' and those of your ilk.

"Your bat, your ball", what arrogance!

When I closed the other post at http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046063...331021281#1331021281 I told a little story. It went like this:

A big Rosh Yeshiva who had a talmud who lived with a single women. The Rosh Yeshiva kicked the student out of the Yeshiva because he heard that the girl went to the mikva before the act. The Rosh Yeshiva said that he would have kept the boy if he just couldnt control himself but to try and kosher averot(sins) is crooked.

I would not call closing that post censorship. The problem was that the foundations of the argument are not consistent with the Torah itself. You cannot have any real Torah discussion if the premises are not according to to the Torah. In other words, in order to disagree you have to agree on something. For example some hypothetical questions like"

1. As an older Jewish single is it a mitvah for my girl friend to go to the mikva?
2. My wife is not Jewish. Is it a mitvah for me to raise my children as Bnai Noach?
3. Is there a heter for two lesbians to marry one man as a way to have a group marriage?

Questions like these have foundations that are clearly forbidden so the question never gets started. The Global Yeshiva is here to discuss Torah and not to G-d forbid make fun of the Torah.

The question was raised:
"What subject under G-d could be improper if the participants in that discussion seek truth and to know the true path?"

The answer is, no question is improper but the people asking it need to "be" on the true path.

Rav Chaim pointed out: "We never condone the actions to make "more permissive" something that is prohibited. We shouldn't encourage going to the Mikva to save sinners from issur Kareis as to condone the probable Issur LAv that's involved (Lo shiyeh Kodesh)"

The Torah is not a joke and G-d is not our buddy. He is the Master of the Universe! If you want to play the game you need to play by the rules. Or else the game is canceled. I would not call this censorship but rather respect.

I agree that there should be no name calling on the forums regardless of the circumstances. We had situations where the name calling got out of hand and I was forced to close the post.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baraz:
What I find shocking here is the notion that someone "knows" apriori that this person "understands Torah correctly" and that this person does not. To be able to assert that, one would be claiming to know the mind of G-d.

In the Torah world (of which The Global Yeshiva is a part) there is such a thing as "Emunas Chachamim", literally "faith in the Sages." We do believe that the Talmidei Chachamim of this world have a deeper (and therefore more correct) understanding of the Torah than those who are not so learned.

That doesn't mean that we must leave it to them to do all the thinking. Absolutely not! All of us must strive to gain a deeper knowledge and understanding of the Torah. But if we come across a statement from a learned Rabbi which seems contrary to what we believe, then (unless we ourselves have sufficient Torah knowledge to be able to argue on his level) we cannot say, "He is wrong." We rather say, "I don't understand."

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baraz:
Can you clarify what you're trying to say? (Or is it only me who doesn't understand)

quote:

I well understand what he is trying to say; it is that he does not recognise the authority of the Torah and those who are learned in it.

I thank G-d that I am a "true believer"!

Yes; you accused me of being a "true believer" (at least it semed like an accusation; it certainly didn't see that you were praising me). That implied that you weren't. I apologise if I misunderstood what you were tryiing to say.