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So that is why I am afraid to wear dresses/skirts and cover my head. At least, not to a doctor's visit. I assume I would have my medication increased or changed, or more frequent visits if I did, since my doctor has already said no.

This concerns me that your doctor has told you "no" about such a legitimate thing as wearing dresses and covering your hair. Obviously, I don't know your specific situation, but at least from the surface, this seems out of line for the doctor to instruct you in this manner.

Like I have posted before, I don't work directly in the psychiatric field nor is it my area of expertise - nevertheless, here is a link that I'd like to provide to you just in case you ever feel it might be helpful to you - it's an organization which promotes justice in mental health. I don't know if it's effective, but it's a link I have come across in the course of investigating consciousness research:

justice in mental health organization, inc.

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I think that unless and until Raybin has clarified her initial post there should be no further comments on it.

I disagree. Some of us have difficulty communicating deeply felt issues to others. Even Moshe Rabbeinu had difficulty communicating to others what he understood with astonishing clarity (this was his speech impediment - a difficulty communicating to others).

For those us also afflicted as Moshe was, sometimes it is helpful for us to communicate when others at least try to draw out what we are trying to communicate by asking probing questions as to what we mean.

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The standad of care in the U.S. for involutary admission for psychiatric illness is the 2PC. 2 independant physicians must document that the patient's mental illness makes them a danger to themselves or other people. Any other treatment is voluntary admission, or outpatient care.

Oh sheesh, people are admitted to psychitric hospitals all the time against their will and sometimes for illegitimate reasons . I suppose the integrity of those in the healthcare and legal systems really is assumed here. And we all know that real integrity abounds in the secular world, don't we?

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I don't know if Lori was married to a Jew or not. But for a moment let's assume her ex- was not Jewish. The halacha would not regard her as being married. Is the nakedness that requires covering her hair "marital nakedness" or a "sexual nakedness"? Within the Jewish paradigm it's the same thing but if a Jew were in a relationship with a Goy it's not considered marriage.
If she is regarded as not being married halachically does she need to cover her hair...especially after the divorce?

My ex-husband was not Jewish. So, I suppose that solves that problem.

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Originally posted by lori:

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I think that unless and until Raybin has clarified her initial post there should be no further comments on it.

I disagree. Some of us have difficulty communicating deeply felt issues to others. Even Moshe Rabbeinu had difficulty communicating to others what he understood with astonishing clarity (this was his speech impediment - a difficulty communicating to others).

My concern was that people were posting messages that were verging on, or actually, making fun of her, and that I did not want to tolerate in a religious Jewish place such as this.

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While men should really not do tefilla in the presence of women whose hair is not covered (this is a separate halacha), many women who usually do not cover will do it going to shul

Like I said earlier, if I lived in an orthodox community, I would cover my hair. I don't have a problem acquiesing to reasonable expectations of a community. Although I wore a hat before when I tried covering my hair, I could probably do a wig. I've never worn a wig, so I don't know how uncomfortable they might be. Honestly, from a female point of view, I like the pretty multi-layered wrapped scarves I've come across. If I lived in an orthodox community, I would probably go that route (the wrapped scarves) as a rule. But, I also like variety, so I would probably do hats and wigs too. If I did wigs, they would have to be close to my own hairstyle/color though because I actually do like my hairstyle. It's one my vanities (yes, I do have some, I admit).

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My concern was that people were posting messages that were verging on, or actually, making fun of her, and that I did not want to tolerate in a religious Jewish place such as this.

I misunderstood. I apologize.

Just to clarify in case I was misunderstood - my laughter was a laughter in recognition of the absurdity of the human condition more or less. Sometimes those of us who are "different" think we are alone in our difference - and I was laughing because I could relate to Raybin's dilemma.

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There is a word used by the mental health establishment that means "too re ligious."

The word you were thinking of is probably obsessive. Laypeople call us fanatics. Don't be fooled by people who think they are normal - no one is without issues, Raybin.

That is not the word. The word is fancy.

Ok. I stand corrected.

Mishna Brurah 75:11 says that single woman that are not virgins should cover there hair, but you shouldn't force them if they insist not to do so.

Rav Chaim;
So if we go by Mishna Brura a woman is really covering sexual nakedness rather than a marital nakedness? In this case, a woman married to a Goy would also need to cover?

I find this odd in that generally I believe we make no distinction, other than as a private matter in her kesubah, between a woman who is a virgin before marriage and otherwise.

Those single women who cover their hair would seemingly be drawing extra attention to such a private matter.

Is there any commentary discussing this aspect? Perhaps this is the reason to not insist in the ending part? And that this initial part applies more to the case of divorced or widowed women?

Another point of different community standards would seem to be whether women who are divorced or widowed and still menstruating should use the mikvah... unless they are kneading dough in order to bake bread for Avraham Avinu, in which case its more clear.

Do we paskin like this Mishna Brurah today, at a time when the modesty issues in our era are very different than 50 years ago?

This is a matter of Halacha and not a matter of societal evolution. What is Halachicly obligated 50 years ago is obligated today also. It’s not a matter of privacy of announcing to the world, but rather not to be modest as the Torah requires. The question is if there is enough evidence to prove that covering one’s hair depends on her non-virginity state or marriage state. So since it’s not proveable it depends on the virginity, even though that is the most probable side, you can’t force someone who insist they don’t want to.

Dear Rav Chaim:

So if there is room within halacha to not require, recognizing these other aspects, might the extra attention or embarassment aspects play a part in how a posek would rule in a given situation, or how a community rabbi might set the community standard for such things?

Do community standards tend to change over time?

I thought the reasons that a woman who has known a man so to speak, covers her hair are: 1) that it is the custom of the whole world and 2) something kabbalistic which I've never had explained to me. Shouldn't the fact that it is not widely, let alone universally, the custom for women who are not virgins to cover their hair for that reason be considered?

I’m sorry, but Halachos cannot be changed. If there is a dire need and there are Shitos to rely on, then the Rav would have to weigh the situation if he can rely on these Shitos in this case (depending on how strong are the Shitos coupled with how severe the prohibition is and how dire the situation is.) But to actually change the Halacha because of the situation calls on it socialy, no. Maybe someone could make a case that since the Panim Mi’eros wasn’t convinced in this case that there is an Issur, then there might be room to be lenient, but that could be left for the Rav of the situation.

In an ideal world, I would be covering my hair and wearing my beautiful kosher clothes. When I don't cover my hair and wear pants it is almost like serving in the military or doing a sentence. I don't recommend it. I am only speaking for myself.

just a side comment- rob mentioned that the status of the woman is a private matter contained within her kesuba... the kesuba doesnt seem to me to be a private matter as its read before a crowd of people...