There do seem to be some folks in those congregations who read out the amount of aliyah pledge donations who have very discerning ears and memories to be able to know all the details... I have also seen that some can do this even while involved in conversation with neighbors.

Is a Kesuba always written in Aramaic?

Perhaps there would be guests in a wedding with a similar aptitude for discerning such things who will hear a numerical value data point tipping them off to information they did not already know, and are not really interested in knowing?

But once the wedding is complete I suspect that noone will really have occasion to casually come to learn the information, and thus is it far less often publicized than a single woman having to go around day in day out with covered hair (or wearing a red Aleph)?

One think women don't usually do in my shule is wear pants. And I know lots of women, Jews or otherwise, who only wear dresses. And lots of women cover up as appropriate to a good Jewish woman and get into no trouble with anybody and certainly don't get called crazy, picked up by the police or put in mental hospitals. I never get this treatment , for example. It just doesn't add up as the Rav's reply (post 2 in this thread) indicated.

So, if you want to dress like a good Jewish woman, do so. But make sure you look and act "normal".

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
In an ideal world, I would be covering my hair and wearing my beautiful kosher clothes. When I don't cover my hair and wear pants it is almost like serving in the military or doing a sentence. I don't recommend it. I am only speaking for myself.

just one little comment...

When the jews were in mitzraim there were three things that they didnt give up. Their Jewish langauge, their Jewish names, and their Jewish clothing. This caused them to merit much.

Rosemary- Where I live it is not "normal" to wear dresses. I think I act normal, maybe not? I am not "normal". In fact, "normal" is a real challenge to me. I am afraid that when I do wear dresses that people will become suspicious of me, which only makes my situation worse. Ok, I'll wear dresses anyway from now on and just trust Hashem. But I will not cover my hair-yet-until I am in a safer place. Thanks for your input.

Bracha- That is an excellent point! I will remember that. Thank you
PS Maybe a wig? I'm not the type.

Rav Mitterhoff,
If people don't get arrested for dressing modestly why would my doctor be so dead set against it?

Raybin- I am truly puzzeled as to what sort of place you can be living in where dresses are not normal ,and where the police would arrest you a lot and talk you to a mental hospital (as you said in your first post in this topic). I even had the crazy thought come to me today that maybe you are a man. Sorry, that's just how my logic went: I can't imagine any other logical explanation, assuming you are dressing both suitably Jewish and not weird for where you live, and are behaving in a normal sort of way.

Could you possibly explain to us a bit more? Maybe we could then offer suggestions as to how you could dress suitably in this unsafe place you live in. As it is, we don't know why it is unsafe, or why you are not normal. I can't think of much more to say to you myself unless, maybe, I know more details. I myself need more specific information. Real life is lived in the concrete , not the abstract or in the imagination ,ie, we have to look at each matter by considering the details of the real life case.

Raybin, I was just thinking about the concept of adaptation...

Before one can truly blend into a society they have to know the standard norms. Could it be possible the dresses you have worn were very attention getting? Often large patterns and flaring skirts draw more attention and are less tsuis than should be desired. Perhaps to master the manner of jewish dress you should visit an intense Jewish community and learn the mode of dress as in what is considered tsnuis. Simply putting on a skirt doesnt make one tsnuis.

As for a sheitel, every married Jewish woman is "the type". We were created "the type"... it just takes some getting used to. Sheitlach can often be more beautiful than natural hair- no one is saying to buy a clown-wig... please dont! that would NOT be tznuis... lol

As for being harassed or arrested for dressing "tsnuis"... the only way i can understand this being a case is in a very small Klanish town, one run by antisemites who hate for people to advertise yiddishkeit. IF that were the case, then one should move. To put ones life in danger is a big avera.

I dont know the situation, but I hope that you come to fulfill the mitzvos to the best of your ability in your given situation. Hatzlacha.

What might be the case, that some shrinks are extremely anti-religious and are indoctrinated for immoral behavior. Their whole indoctrination is that we’re just more advanced animals, and that should be the way we should act, with our animal instincts. The whole notion that someone should live a wholesome, moral lives are unhealthy.

Rav Chaim,I personally have never come across such a thing. Indeed, I have, as a health professional, come across the opposite, ie, release from the confines of a mental hospital when the way the person is speaking, dressing or acting is definitely not what most secular or even religious people would call restrained or typical. Since the days of the anti-psychiatric movement within psycholohy and psychiatry in the 60s and 70s, and the more known views of postmodern philosophy (maybe in another form/forum than in which they initially appeared), many health professionals and others are wary of using cultural norms as normative psychiatrically. And people's rights are more respected now. Of course we do not live in an ideal world though.

We have heard how certain countries under dictatorial regimes have used psychiatric incarceration for ideological reasons. In the case of the current discussion, I noted that Raybin is in the USA.

In addition, I understood that in the USA, as well as here in Australia, that it is possible for a person to be admitted through special means into a psychiatric institution and not properly assessed till later. Furthermore, police can take a person they deem to be acting as if crazy to a mental institution, but the person will not necessarily be admitted by the psychiatric intake staff. Possibly this has some bearing on the matter.

I noticed that Raybin spoke of her "doctor". Assumptions are prone to mislead us, but I did assume, myself, albeit tentatively, that this doctor of Raybin's was a GP voicing his or her avuncular and personal opinion, kindly meant and not on a professional basis. Then I asked myself why a GP, whom I assumed, again tentatively, to be intelligent and astute, would think to say what Raybin said he or she did. It seemed possible to me that Raybin might be able to dress a bit better somehow, while still attaining Tznius. I did wonder too, if there were other matters involved which were bothering the doctor about Raybin's case.

How does all this sound Raybin? We will never know much really unless you speak up more fully. And I am becoming very uncomfortable about talking "around" you, so to speak. I don't think I can continue to do this.

Something thing I was just thinking, consonant with Bracha's wise comments, is that we can sometimes not be good observers of ourselves for some reason. Therefore it can help sometimes to seek out the counsel of a wise person we trust. What about asking your rabbi, Raybin? Or his wife or a woman at shul you can speak to ?

Having said all this, I do agree with what you say, Rav, about what lots of shrinks are like.Lots of people in other professions and non professions are like that too. This must be remembered and considered. I'm just not convinced that we are justified in thinking this is likely to have some influence in Raybin's case. But then again, all this talk is hypothetical.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
What might be the case, that some shrinks are extremely anti-religious and are indoctrinated for immoral behavior. Their whole indoctrination is that we’re just more advanced animals, and that should be the way we should act, with our animal instincts. The whole notion that someone should live a wholesome, moral lives are unhealthy.

Shalom- For the past 2 weeks or so, the ceiling beams of my house have not seen the hairs of my head. I even went to the store in a skirt and a snood hat. I heard a mother remark to her sons that I didn't look like a very good person. And the store clerk that waited on me made a remark about my hat.

Bracha- Everything that you said hit the nail on the head. I do think I live in an anti-semitic area and I should probably move. My doctor (psychiatrist) did say I could wear those clothes somewhere else but not here. Now you tell me that flare skirts aren't Tznius I just bought one. That was all that was available to me over the internet. I just went on a spending spree and purchased a sheitel. Maybe that will make me look more normal to them. As it stands now, I would hate to let up on a good thing because I am really on a roll as far as dressing Tznius is concerned. They are going to have to get used to me. I own a house here so I cannot up and go so easily. It is the most inexpensive place and I cannot afford to move to another place since I recieve disability benefits. The police around here have not hassled me. But they used to when I lived somewhere else. I have a good mind to dress Tznius for my next MD appt. Yes, it is the right thing to do and I am going to do it! Thank you all for your encouragement, I couldn't do it without you!

As I understand it, according to my Rabbi, the Chassidic women either cut their hair shorter then most men's hair, or even shave it. This was done 300 years ago to protect them from rapists, where they could take of their tichel or sheitel and gross those out who would be their attackers and hence, be protected from such persons. Now, I see Chassidic and many Orthodox women wear gorgeous wigs that look better then their hair. If they want to be modest and not show off their hair they they should NOT wear fancy wigs which makes them look more desireable. If you look at biblical examples, you see that Women Veiled themselves. So if you really want to be modest, you should wear a tichel, like the women and girls wore in the Fiddler on the Roof. That is what I call modesty. One time I visited a Religious service during the High Holy Days, the Chazzan's very pregnant young wife had a gorgeous long wig on, halfway down her back. The Rebbitzen who was a friend of mine, was flabbergasted when the young women, upon us commenting on her wig said:" Thank you, isn't it beautiful? It's HUMAN HAIR!" We went outside and both shook our heads, saying that it defeated the purpose of what she was trying to do.
I like to see anywhere in the T'nakh where it says to wear anything other then veils. Or for that matter what kind of cut of dress, skirt or blouse.

Who came up with all these standards anyway? The Rabbonim? Who are they to tell others what is modest. Somebody said earlier that there were a lot of women in her/his area who wore modest dresses and they were not even Jewish. You probably ran into a Pentecostal community.

As I see, I gave up all that covering stuff only yesterday because of the explanation my Rabbi gave in class this week.

If you can give me a de oraita example that conclusively tells me I have to wear a certain cut of clothing and give me the book, chapter and verse, I would be really surprised. I decided to obey scriptural commandments only from now on. It seems that anything with "De Rabbanan" has to many extra laws and rules and regulations.

I was frank eventhough I don't know either of you. If I offended you, that was not my attention.
Sincerely yours, Tired of Rabbinic Interpretations.

quote:

As I see, I gave up all that covering stuff only yesterday because of the explanation my Rabbi gave in class this week.

... It seems that anything with "De Rabbanan" has to many extra laws and rules and regulations.

Shalom:

Do I understand correctly that based one thing a current day rabbi said you are deciding for yourself to give up on anything possibly greater rabbis in prior years have said?

Do you think you might have not interpretted what the rabbi said accurately? Correct interpretation is key to correct understanding...

Many folks who say they reject rabbinic law also mean to say that they reject the entirety of our oral traditions. Do you feel that way too?

If you were to learn that it is only the oral tradition which tells us how to vowelize the consonants in the written Torah, and there are many rabbinic commentaries which discuss subtle changes in meaning based on a single vowel - some right in our parsha this past week - would that keep you from espousing the heretical belief of rejecting oral tradition and rabbinic decrees?

I so like this bit that you said about correct interpretation, Rob. So true !

And I second your post.

And, related to all this, if somebody is going to be a heretic, surely they owe it to themselves to check things out properly first. One may otherwise make dreadful choices out of ignorance. That might be a definition of folly, come to think of it.

quote:

Correct interpretation is key to correct understanding...

ArwenLegolas,
Are you Jewish? I hate to ask such a fundamental question. If you are not Jewish then the rabbonim are irrelevant to you.
Did you know that Moshe was the definitive rabbi? So were Samuel, Elijah, Ezra, etc. The prophets were rabbis. It turns out that the entire Tanak was written by rabbis. So what are you going to believe? Even what's written in Torah, we take Moshe's word that it was written by the Kadosh Baruch Hu? So if the interpretations of the rabbonim are bogus, what are you left with? Nothing! If you reject the rabbis you have to reject the same rabbis who wrote the Tanak!
Again, are you Jewish?

I didn't question that ArwenLegolas was Jewish. This is because I know people are and have long been thinking like her. The cure is to go deep and not keep skimming the surface. Otherwise lots of things just don't make sense. We need to know enough to recognise the difference between a diamond and a synthetic one.

And I thought that your mentioning all this, ArwenLegolas, meant that you are trying to learn more. It seems to me that you are still searching for the truth. You are where it can be. Don't throw out your heritage without checking it out - properly. And it doesn't happen quickly and without effort.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
ArwenLegolas,
Are you Jewish? I hate to ask such a fundamental question. If you are not Jewish then the rabbonim are irrelevant to you.
Did you know that Moshe was the definitive rabbi? So were Samuel, Elijah, Ezra, etc. The prophets were rabbis. It turns out that the entire Tanak was written by rabbis. So what are you going to believe? Even what's written in Torah, we take Moshe's word that it was written by the Kadosh Baruch Hu? So if the interpretations of the rabbonim are bogus, what are you left with? Nothing! If you reject the rabbis you have to reject the same rabbis who wrote the Tanak!
Again, are you Jewish?

Rosemary,
I'm not questioning her Jewishness. It's a rhetorical question because being Jewish puts us in the covenant. If we are in the covenant we have to understand what it means to be in the covenant because it's been passed down to us by rabbis. So if we reject the rabbis we are essentially rejecting the covenant. If we reject the covenant, are we Jews?

We really need a new thread on the Oral Tradition because Judaism and Jewishness exist only in the Oral Tradition. Without the Oral Tradition we've got a bunch of books written by wise men, nothing more.

Yes, Moshe, I did understand that you probably didn't think ArwenLegolas wasn't Jewish.

It bothered me that you said this, basically. I know you were kinda leaning on her to join up with the clan and believe likewise (ignoring for the sake of the discussion that there is an awful lot of disagreement among members of the clan). The thing is that the "You are Jewish so be Jewish" argument isn't that convincing to a lot of people. The argument is easily negated by saying " But they were all old fogies" , or something like that. People need to find what they need to convince them - that's my take on it. And I think they need assistance to work it out and I guess that is why there is now a lot more being done these days (but not where I live) on Jewish education, etc.

And I think the answer to your " If we reject the covenant, are we Jews?" is yes. A Jew is a Jew.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rosemary,
I'm not questioning her Jewishness. It's a rhetorical question because being Jewish puts us in the covenant. If we are in the covenant we have to understand what it means to be in the covenant because it's been passed down to us by rabbis. So if we reject the rabbis we are essentially rejecting the covenant. If we reject the covenant, are we Jews?

Covering hair IS m'doraisa. We see from the case of the sota when her hair is uncovered to expose the erva it is because she has violated the marriage union. Hair covering and marriage go hand in hand- m'doraisa.

Of course there are different accepted standards in halacha- a tichel, a sheitel (human hair vs. synthetic), a tichel+additional covering etc etc...

Quote "Who came up with all these standards anyway? The Rabbonim? Who are they to tell others what is modest. "

The Torah states (Dvarim17:8 -13) You should go to the Kohanim and Leviyim and judge that is in your days....do not turn nor right nor left of what he tells you." It would seem that Hashem himself is giving them the authority.


Quote "I decided to obey scriptural commandments only. It seems that "De Rabbanan" has to many extra laws and rules and regulations."

First, without the rabbis interpretation, how is it possible to even fathom what the scriptural commandments are?
As Koheles says "Those that break the fence (that the Rabbis erected to protect the Torah) will be smitten by a snake (death from heaven)

Listen, it's a free country, nobody is going to force you to keep any religion that you don't want to. You can become a druids. But, like any decision, there are consequences to them. We can make any philosophy we want, but at the end, if it's not what Hashem wants, your actions can lead to great suffering. Let the buyer (into certain philosophies) beware.

quote:

It bothered me that you said this, basically. I know you were kinda leaning on her to join up with the clan and believe likewise (ignoring for the sake of the discussion that there is an awful lot of disagreement among members of the clan). The thing is that the "You are Jewish so be Jewish" argument isn't that convincing to a lot of people. The argument is easily negated by saying " But they were all old fogies" , or something like that. People need to find what they need to convince them - that's my take on it.

Ultimately, we accept Torah simply because we choose to believe it. So yes, "If you are Jewish be Jewish" really sums it up in reality. How we get there is a different story because we don't need to get anything proven to us. We accept that Moshe Rabbienu said was true. We cannot prove it. Yes there are many opinions among our gedolim, that's the beauty of Judaism. It can accommodate so many opinions. The very thing she finds to be a weakness in rabbinic opinions is actually a strength.

quote:

And I think they need assistance to work it out and I guess that is why there is now a lot more being done these days (but not where I live) on Jewish education, etc.

And I think the answer to your " If we reject the covenant, are we Jews?" is yes. A Jew is a Jew.

Saying "a Jew is a Jew" is just a script. Where does that script come from? From the covenant. You believe you are a Jew because your mother is a Jew. But who said if your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew? Yes, the covenant said so. So logically it's impossible to say I am a Jew because the covenant says so, then in the next breath reject that very covenant. You can't have it both ways. You can't use the covenant to define yourself and then reject that covenant. It's logically impossible.

So when you claim to be a Jew, you are, in fact, embracing the covenant and you are bound by it. Our friend is stuck with being a Jew if she claims to be one. And yes, "You are Jewish, so be Jewish." There isn't any way around it. We just need to learn and understand.

The Torah states (Dvarim 17:8 -13) You shall come to the Kohanim and Leviyim and to the judge who will be in those days....you shall not deviate from the word that they tell you, right or left"

Right or left means right or wrong. So the rabbis could indeed be wrong, but once they've made the ruling, it becomes right and the Kadosh Baruch Hu actually makes that ruling the right one. Can you believe it? It's true. That's how Torah is tructured. It's written like a constitution. The Kadosh Baruch Hu defers to the sages on the ground. Wild huh? The idea that the written Torah is reliable and the opinions of the rabbis are suspect is a Christian and Karaite idea. The written Torah is not observable without the opinions of the rabbis.