Yes, I 100% agree with this and I know it from awful personal experience.

I am a ba'al teshuva big time.. I had to find my way back to where I belong despite the decisions of my Jewish (ah yes, despite rejecting, apparently, the covenant)forebears, some of whom were still living and adamantly into denial, obstruction, and punishment of those who tried to break free of their decision.. It can be like that: fact.

But it doesn't stop there. Even leaving aside the deeper levels of truth about reality, there are consequences for Jews who decide to assimilate - I believe from pondering my extended family's experience. In reality you become "stateless", only it is worse than that because the state we are talking about is an existential one: one becomes a boat adrift without mast, oars or a motor. One takes in water; wallows; and maybe sinks. We are talking about enormous personal consequences here. The Jew cuts free from his or her roots thinking "Ah, glorious freedom... and safety and privilege and all the rest of it". But they do not come from those they seek to be taken for in their assimilation: they do not share the other nations' heritages however hard they try to fit in - somethings just don't "take" in the attempted transplant and things can become gangrenous. This is how it seems to me, from my personal experience, observation and thinking on the subject.

If one factors in the deeper levels of reality that Enlightenment blinkered Western society cannot allow as real, what we see is a lost Jewish soul, cut off from his or her kind, and adrift among the goyim who have a different sort of soul. Try that for anguish.

So I do understand and I came to this understanding a way so hard that this venue is no place to give some of the details. And I am not just talking about how it has been for this Jew.

Choose well.

quote:

Listen, it's a free country, nobody is going to force you to keep any religion that you don't want to. You can become a druids. But, like any decision, there are consequences to them. We can make any philosophy we want, but at the end, if it's not what Hashem wants, your actions can lead to great suffering. Let the buyer (into certain philosophies) beware

Moshe, you and I stand on the same ground. We just see some things differently.

You said "Ultimately, we accept Torah simply because we choose to believe it. ... How we get there is a different story because we don't need to get anything proven to us. We accept that Moshe Rabbienu said was true. We cannot prove it.[I]". This is how you see it.

Well, for me, I need proof. But a proof that is convincing to me. What proof convinces me may not convince another. Actually I think we all have our reasons. But they aren't necessarily or even mostly "respectable" rational, logical and intellectual ones, all sifted through to eliminate the sligtest bit of "nonsense". There can be a lot of assumptions in there, etc. Humans are touchingly real (read messy and imperfect).

And I have my proof, enough for me though there is still stuff I then agree to take on faith. I struggled hard to get my proof and on a journey that may have been through "lands" very foreign to you. I searched from a very lost position of assimilation for what I could accept. I travelled through land after land and said "No". Then, when I thought I would be a lost traveller forever, my answer (proof) came to me and when I hadn't even put out something (Judaism) to be tested. I did not make that happen but I recognised the answer.

quote:

I need proof. But a proof that is convincing to me. What proof convinces me may not convince another.

But Rosemary, what if you base a huge committment to something "proved" upon a false foundation?

If the foundation later gets yanked out from under the belief system of one who _thinks_ that these items of faith had been proven?

Rosemary,
Perhaps by "proof" you mean logical consistency. Yes, Judaism is the most logical system of thought. But proof, for most people, is imperical evidence.....good luck!

Yes indeed, Rob. Excellent point. And I have looked that dreadful thought in the eye.

Firstly, everything is ultimately taken on faith for we humans, even if the unaware do not know this. Only G-d has certainty.

But I think there is a way to be as sure as one can be. This is to judge with one's totality, as a whole, with all the aspects of one's being and in a good state of balance and connection to G-d. I could be wrong and , if so, please correct me and I'll deal with it. But I am as convinced as I can be when, on the basis of everything, including experience and my thoughts, emotions and reactions, Judaism reveals itself as something so incredibly powerful, massively important and desirable (all those words are pathetically inadequate, however) for me).For me to explain this properly, I'd have to be far wiser and knowledgable than I am, and they are so hard to put into words anyway, but there are things I "know" and yet don't quite know, but can cite experiences I have had in deep and "real" way (as real as sucking on a lemon), that "tell" me things though it is a "funny" (unusual?) way of knowing. These experiences make up my foundational reality as opposed to the more superficial realms of discursive thought, and they are all my modes, including emotion. All this told and tells me Judaism is for me.

More simply, and leaving out lots, a crucial point for me was when, never having added Judaism to my list of religions to explore and check out (because of internalised family prohibitions maybe, but I'm not sure) I clicked onto a web site that had the Torah read in Hebrew. I had enrolled in a course of Hebrew as I wanted to read the Bible in Hebrew , realising the translations were distorted. When I started to listen to the beginnig of Beresheis, it just did something incredible to me, as if it broke me into a million pieces and I cried and cried. Very strange. Especially for yours truly. I am not prone to such "weird" behaviour. But I realised I was sane so I , once recovered (but changed somehow), decided to work out what the heck was going on. But I really knew the answer, somehow, don't ask me why (I don't know). I went and cheched out Judaism and it never failed to get my heartfelt assent whereas all other religions I cheched out never made it to my assent, not at all. There is a kind of heartfelt something that knows, if we tap into it. It has to be subjected to a time test in case one is being fooled, and I have done that for sure. I didn't want to get disappointed. And I , by now, know I won't be.

This isn't to say that at other levels there isn't uncertainty about some things for me. The books of Rabbi Joseph Sloveitchik (eg, "The Lonely Man of faith"; "Halachic Mind" ) are useful here. But I have developed ways of dealing with this. It's an ongoing journey. And there are doubts about some things, sure. But that's life. In the end, I just hang out with the "clan" I love and came to recognise I belonged to , though I really knew all along but somehow, strangely (to me: I don't get it), ignored.

I guess that one thing I am saying is the "the items of faith" didn't get proven - the way to accepting them did.

I'd be interedted to know if any of this makes sense. If I'm deluded, I might as well face it.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

I need proof. But a proof that is convincing to me. What proof convinces me may not convince another.

But Rosemary, what if you base a huge committment to something "proved" upon a false foundation?

If the foundation later gets yanked out from under the belief system of one who _thinks_ that these items of faith had been proven?

Yes indeed. It is just amazong and satisfies and provides for me and leads me on as I should go.

And there is another consistency too. This is in me in relation to it. So I know all is well with my choice/recognition - actually recognition> choice.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rosemary,
Perhaps by "proof" you mean logical consistency. Yes, Judaism is the most logical system of thought. But proof, for most people, is imperical evidence.....good luck!

quote:

I'd be interedted to know if any of this makes sense. If I'm deluded, I might as well face it.

I think it makes GREAT sense! Yasher Koach!

But I think its in the realm of "convincing" but not "proof".

How do you face delusion?

Thanks Rob. I'm glad it sounds ok. It all convinced me. And it wasn't as if I was easy to be convinced.

Perhaps I should add that I was never exposed to Judaism in practice until my journey led me to it. Maybe if I had been I would have come "home" much sooner. I was consciously searching by my mid teens and longed for and had a strong idea of what I now realise was the figure of a mentor rabbi. Unfortunately that was a long time ago and we did not even have a TV, so I did not know what I was searching for. I still have not found that rabbi, but I may be homing in. It is hard when so much is up to me.

You could be right about its not being proof. I need to understand that word better.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

I'd be interedted to know if any of this makes sense. If I'm deluded, I might as well face it.

I think it makes GREAT sense! Yasher Koach!

But I think its in the realm of "convincing" but not "proof".

Shalom ,Raybin.

That is a short question you asked and I suspect a worthy answer would need to be long. I shall keep thinking about it and will let you know if I get a long answer come to me.

Right now, the answer I get is "With honesty, integrity, courage, and trust in Hashem".

But it's not simple. You know that. I guess it is a journey to truth and we have to be persistent.

And we may need some various sorts of help along the way, as needed. But I don't believe any amount of help will work if we don't take responsibility for ourselves and say no to dishonest cop outs. That's tough. But the rewards are great. We get to see much more accurately.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
How do you face delusion?

Wow! I made it! Baruch HaShem!

THis is my first posting. I wanted to respond to the last writer with it seems to me that if I just keep plugging, and not give up eventually my sincere efforts are rewarded with answers. But in the middle of the blind plugging or searching it can feel so much like one is on a treadmill or in the water with nothing to grasp except prior memories of finding solutions.

SHalom! Keep plugging for those answers..........smile

Shalom Hadahra. Welcome. Just getting on here can be a challenge. All that technology! Now you can look forward to figuring out all the icon thingies

Yes, I really and sincerely agree with what you said. Persistence is a big key. It helps if you are stubborn like me (sigh). But, seriously, I have found it a big challenge. There have been so many times I thought I couldn't rise (off the floor) to the challenge. That's when it's time to plug in some good strategies, I think, like go to shul, get support, read a good book, go for a walk, listen to music, have a nap, etc. Actually I can already add to that list I just gave. How to be persistent must be a big subject in itself. But at least there are ways even if it isn't necessarily easy.

I just had another idea, on rereading your post just now. I agree with you that the memories of success are important as they help us believe we can succeed again. I'm wondering if what has helped me also to hang on in there might stem most from paying attention to and following an urging that comes from deep inside me, like when your breathing stops and you just have to try to breathe, even if maybe you give up for a bit and think you just can't do it. And I have to factor in what has been important to me as long as I can remember which is an awareness of the protective presence of G-d. I guess it can be a pretty individual matter.

Happy journeying.

quote:

Originally posted by hadahra:
Wow! I made it! Baruch HaShem!

THis is my first posting. I wanted to respond to the last writer with it seems to me that if I just keep plugging, and not give up eventually my sincere efforts are rewarded with answers. But in the middle of the blind plugging or searching it can feel so much like one is on a treadmill or in the water with nothing to grasp except prior memories of finding solutions.

SHalom! Keep plugging for those answers..........smile

I am not the best reader, so forgive me for not following along with this topic right now..

I would like to go all the way back to the beginning and address some questions that I have avoided. What kind of modest clothes was I wearing and what was I doing when I was wearing them. I am not perfect.

When referring to the way I dressed, my rabbi once called me an artist. Also, once he said that my clothing was bizarre. I have a tendency to like natural fibers and no ironing. I probably look more like a hippie or a vagrant person to some people, though my clothes are basically modest. Long dresses and sleeves, and covered hair. The more contact I had with the mental health system, the more obligated I became to it, until finally I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The straw that broke the camel's back was when once I lived in a Catholic town. I went off of my medication for several months and then I saw fit to go to a Catholic Church, since Catholism is so pervasive. I started a dialog, making fun of it by saying that J was a mother f-. Also, I said I was going to marry J, since they think he is alive, again making fun of it. Then I said I wanted to marry the priest, since priests don't marry. I didn't mean it in a literal way, it was just a figure of speech to me. So I got arrested, and pled guilty even though I was innocent because it was a Catholic town and it would have been a Catholic priest's word against mine. So now the Pope knows me.

And I know to stay away from Xianity the best I can, even though it is so pervasive. Hashem punished me for even investigating the religion. That's all.

Wow, Raybin, you sure went too far with those Catholics. No wonder you got arrested. In another time and/or place you would have got yourself killed. You treated them with such a lack of respect and it sounds like you made a scene too. There is no use making excuses: If this is what you did, you did it.

Do you know why you did this?

It really would be a very good idea if you took better care of yourself, such as not going off your medication. We all have to work out what we need to do to make sure we function well. One thing I have to watch out for is that I get enough sleep.

I want to point out something about this current post of yours that you may not have realised. I had answered a question you asked about delusion ,but you just ignored it with an excuse. Excuses don't fool many people, and not people like me. You can read fine enough to acknowledge my effort even if you don't feel like discussing the matter. You could have said " Thank you, Rosemary. I will think about that." That is kindness in action. My purpose in telling you this is not to be nasty but to try to get you to see something in your behaviour that you could change. And can't we all change something about us, if only we coulf figure out what to change? What you need to change is not considering how other people will react to what you do. This goes for what you did at the church too, that you just said.

Fix just this one thing and your life will improve beyond your wildest dreams. Because then you can start thinking about how you should act and to do this, remembering that it is practice makes perfect.

I hope you don't mind my saying this. I mean well. I am trying to help you. If you seem not to appreciate my giving advice like this, no worries as I won't do it again. Ideally, it'd be a good idea to simply tell me what you want .

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I am not the best reader, so forgive me for not following along with this topic right now..

I would like to go all the way back to the beginning and address some questions that I have avoided. What kind of modest clothes was I wearing and what was I doing when I was wearing them. I am not perfect.

When referring to the way I dressed, my rabbi once called me an artist. Also, once he said that my clothing was bizarre. I have a tendency to like natural fibers and no ironing. I probably look more like a hippie or a vagrant person to some people, though my clothes are basically modest. Long dresses and sleeves, and covered hair. The more contact I had with the mental health system, the more obligated I became to it, until finally I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The straw that broke the camel's back was when once I lived in a Catholic town. I went off of my medication for several months and then I saw fit to go to a Catholic Church, since Catholism is so pervasive. I started a dialog, making fun of it by saying that J was a mother f-. Also, I said I was going to marry J, since they think he is alive, again making fun of it. Then I said I wanted to marry the priest, since priests don't marry. I didn't mean it in a literal way, it was just a figure of speech to me. So I got arrested, and pled guilty even though I was innocent because it was a Catholic town and it would have been a Catholic priest's word against mine. So now the Pope knows me.

And I know to stay away from Xianity. Hashem punished me for even investigating the religion. That's all.

Maybe I mocked them to their face, but they didn't respect me more. They framed me and charged me with something that I didn't do. I made no threats to them whatsoever. And they know it.

Dear Raybin,

I am in a quandry as to how to respond to you. I don't want to be too hard on you and I certainly don't want to upset you. Maybe I'll take the risk as I really want to help you, though I certainly have so much to learn and this is such a difficult matter.

Raybin, do you think that mocking them to their face helped anything? Was it a good strategy? It doesn't seem so as you got taken away. You must have felt bad about that.

Maybe the charge that got put against you for what you did included some things you didn't do. The set wording of charges can do that.

You can only do your best to get people to respect you. Then you have no control over it any more. Some people just won't respect us because they look at things differently. You don't have to worry about that. Just let it go and keep calm and pleasant. Hashem is in charge. It'll all turn out ok in the long run. And only Hashem can judge us. Only Hashem knows the real truth.

And, once you annoy people and expecially if you rubbish their cherished beliefs and start disturbing how they want things to go, things can get out of hand as people get upset and angry and want to retaliate or get rid of you. Better to keep yourself calm and quiet, don't you think? Then you stay in your own world and let them stay in theirs.

Hey! I just remembered. Somebody said the best way to get at somebody who treats you badly is to be soooooooo nice to them (lol ). I must remember that

All the best.

Rosemary

QUOTE]Originally posted by Raybin:
Maybe I mocked them to their face, but they didn't respect me more. They framed me and charged me with something that I didn't do. I made no threats to them whatsoever. And they know it.[/QUOTE]