what does the torah say about some one who takes his or her own life?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila,

It's considered very severe. So much so, we don't even sit Shiva for such a person. There is a saying that he loses his share in the world to come, and the Oruch Hashulchon brings a proof to that.

okay so what about the jews at massada, didnt they commit suiside? but thire remeberd as hero's

The laws concerning who is deemed a suicide are quite detailed and it is rare that someone is found in Jewish Law to have committed suicide.

For example, if the person is under some form of mental stress (as surely the Messada Jews were) then it is not considered suicide.

The Shulchan Aruch defines a suicide in YD Siman 345:2 as follows:

Who is one who kills himself intentionally? For example, someone who said he was going up to the top of the roof, and they saw that he went up immediately in an angry manner or that he was extremely distressed, and he fell and died, this person is presumed to be one who killed himself intentionally. But if they saw him strangled and hanging from a tree or killed and impaled on a sword, he is presumed to be like all other deceased and is tended to and they withhold nothing from him.

The Pischei Teshuva there brings the following true story:

A man who had been acting strangely was found stabbed to death with the knife (which he had been sharpening in the preceding days) still in his hand. A few days before his death he had written on the wall, "If I am considered to have killed myself intentionally, I want my Talmidim to say Kaddish for me." For various reasons (not least of which was that no one actually saw him do it) he was judged not to have killed himself intentionally and therefore nothing in regard to Aveilus [mourning], etc. was withheld from him.

And if one is asked to convert to xtianity or risk being killed, this is also not a case of suicide.

What about Channah, when her seven sons were murdered for not worshippign the idol and she committed suicide out of grief right afterward?

As Rav Yisroel mentioned above that Mental Stress is not considered suicide. You have to ask yourself, is "grief" the same as "mental stress"; and are there other cases where it would not be too?

you say if you are under mental stress then its not really suiside.
so imagine a person who doesnt whant to die, but he or she has had a somewhat difficult life,this individual has struggled to get his/her life together, but everything keeps going wrong and there just seems to be no way ou so in an act hopelessnes and desperation this individual takes an overdose,
is it not considered suiside in a case like this?

quote:

is it not considered suiside in a case like this?

As per the quote from the Shulchan Aruch above, only if the person told someone else that he was going to kill himself and then did so right away. If a person is found dead from an overdose, then we do not treat it as a suicide as far as Jewish Law is concerned.

Ok, how does a person take their own life and NOT be under mental stress? I think that may be impossible with the possible exception of a criminal tryign to escape having to pay for a crime.

Quote "As per the quote from the Shulchan Aruch above, only if the person told someone else that he was going to kill himself and then did so right away. If a person is found dead from an overdose, then we do not treat it as a suicide as far as Jewish Law is concerned."

I think the question here is not how much proof we need for us to treat it as a suicide, but rather as the person who wants to commit it per se, how bad is it? Thus I brought a proof from how suicide (however we need to prove it) is treated for Shiva how horrible a sin it is that someone shouldn't commit it.

B"H

I do know that it was once an old Jewish custom to bury those who committed suicide only after the sun had set, that is, at night. This might say something about the severity with which it was viewed in Jewish law.

David

I heard that too, but it seems the above posts are giving more evidence that there is LESS harsh of a view of suicide and giving more and more room for its acceptance. I think taking one's own life is far greater a sin than as being "looked down upon".

R' Chaim was right to say that the posts that started with mine have detracted from the fact that suicide is treated as a very severe sin; a person is basically murdering himself.

hi yocheved
i understand your strong feelings against suiside, i think its important thow to see the humanitarian side of things. only someone who is greatlly distressed and troumatized would resort to such a thing, now in that mindframe
would you not be considered mentaly ill to some degree rather than an evil sinner.

hi yissrael phillips
imagine this sinario
an individual, whants to live
the people around you make that imposible so life becomes nothing but a long struggle for survival, with no hope,so this indivdual end up killing his/ her self , indirectly would not the the people that put this individual in such a situation bare some of the responsibility?

quote:

Posted July 21, 2006 11:02 AM
hi yocheved
i understand your strong feelings against suiside, i think its important thow to see the humanitarian side of things. only someone who is greatlly distressed and troumatized would resort to such a thing, now in that mindframe
would you not be considered mentaly ill to some degree rather than an evil sinner.

Yesm Ilana, I firmly believe in the humanitarian side of things--never more than in the situation of CHannah and her seven sons as mentioned. But MY take on things is wholly irrelevent. It only matters what HaSh-m's ruling on the situation is. I don't like the rulings on several different things HaSh-m dealt out--Moshe's prohibition from going into the Cana'an, for example. But that is immaterial and unimportant. Only that I accept it, that is important.

The goal I am reaching for is to understand WHERE exactly HaSh-m stands on this issue, because that then defines where I STAND on the issue.

As to your last question--do I see them as distressed and not sinners. I DO NOT necessarily see them as sinners--as in the case of Channah as I mentioned--but I see them as distressed people who SINNED. "Sinner" being defined to my mind as a person who actively engages in sin as a habit and NOT as one who sinned as an EXCEPTION, and not as a rule or as a matter of character.

That is to say, ALL people have sinned. Yet some people ar righteous. Hence the difference.

My question is, since nearly every single suicide is in fact the product of a mentally distressed individual's personal torment, is that sin of suicide equally treated (as inthe case fo CHannah) versus someone evil trying to escape justice (like Hitler-may his name perish forever). I should think NOT. But that is ME thinking. I wish to know what G-d says.

I hope this clarifies the question.

hi Yocheved
you said you define sinner as someone who does something continuaslly as a habit, its kind of hard to make a habbit of suiside.
sure its important that we find out G-Ds take on the subject, but does he not also play a part or share in the responsibilty, in a subjects suiside, i meen he stands by and watches as someone is in great pain and suffering and having the power to help, just stands by and doed nothing, why would he allow for someone to be in such a sorrowfull position where he/she feels the only way out is death

quote:

i meen he stands by and watches as someone is in great pain and suffering and having the power to help, just stands by and doed nothing, why would he allow for someone to be in such a sorrowfull position where he/she feels the only way out is death

I am NOT a deist. I do NOT believe HaSh-m stands by with some sick pleasure watching people's pain. You are discussing something completely different (another subject) which I believe is the problems with free will. Since G-d gave man free will, should he then TAKE AWAY that same gift of free will because he hates what man chooses to do with it? Granted, He has many times "stepped in" and SUPERCEDED man's will (not taken it away) with His own will. Namely to preserve His own chosen people.

G-d DOES NOT hold the responsibility for the evil of men's choices. Only MAN is (and will be ) punished/rewarded for his own choices. If G-d took away our free will to make those choices then we would all be little remote-controlled toys. THat is not His will. His will is for us to see the bad and fix it OUT OF OUR OWN FREE WILL. To be the harbingers of peace, and world reparations. To RISE ABOVE our own selfish yetzer Ha Ra and GROW UP. He cannot allow us to do this if he "fixes " every bad thing that comes our way so we are never challenged to do something about the bad.

Like a spoiled rich child who has his every need met and all barriers and obstacles are effectively swept away by his well meaning but unwise parents, we too, would never succeed, never grow up to be strong in the face of adversity--to right wrongs--

...and YES, even be allowed and given the DIGNITY to fail.