After reading this weeks commentary on Torah-that we are what we do, not what we know-I feel the need to improve my life and to act on what I know is right. A few years ago I dressed modestly and covered my head, but I used to get stopped by the police alot and taken in to mental hospitals. After I decided not to cover my hair and to wear pants in order to be left alone and to keep a low profile, I haven't been in the hospital, nor stopped by the police. I know it is not right to dress the way I do, but when I dress the right way it raises everybody's suspicians and I am afraid I will end up in the loony bin again because of it. When I told my doctor that I want to wear dresses and cover my head she gets really concerned about me. What should I do?

I have never heard of being arrested for dressing modest. What do you mean?

Taken to the looney bin? What part of the USA do you live in?

Raybin,
I couldn't stop laughing when I read your story. It's just too bizzare to be part of our known world. There's got to be something else to this story you are not telling us. What kind of modest clothes are you wearing? What are you doing when you wear them? If you are standing by the street corner and start to harrass passersby or something, then of course, even I might send you somewhere. Nowhere in the US are people sent to mental hospitals, where such hospitals still exist. Patients characteristically undergo a barrage of tests and medications etc before they are even considered for institutionalization. You are not telling us the whole story.

The standad of care in the U.S. for involutary admission for psychiatric illness is the 2PC. 2 independant physicians must document that the patient's mental illness makes them a danger to themselves or other people. Any other treatment is voluntary admission, or outpatient care.

Raybin, is there a Jewish chaplain in the hospital? Is there a Jewish Rabbi you know? You can ask either the Jewish chaplain or Rabbi to explain to your doctor why you want to dress modestly. And that should clear up any misunderstanding your doctor has.

Hope that helps.

I think that unless and until Raybin has clarified her initial post there should be no further comments on it. Furthermore, any comments should have regard for the Halachos of Lashon Hara and the very strict prohibition against embarrassing someone in public.

"Open for me slightly your heart, and I'll open the world for you"
Book of Zohar
Who am I and for what purpose do I exist? How did we appear here and where are we going? Is it possible that we have already been in this world before? Can we know ourselves and the universe? Why does man suffer and is it possible to avoid suffering? How can one find peace, satisfaction, and luck? How can we attain tranquility, fulfillment, and happiness?

“Who Am I”
Author: Rav Michael Laitman, PhD
http://www.kabbalah.info

Nella, pray tell the purpose of that post.

I had to laugh when I read Raybin's post. It's not so bizarre for a person who has changed his or her way of life to be seen as more than a little abnormal, crazy even, by those around him/her. Particularly if we are making major changes in an environment unfamiliar with or hostile to an observant lifestyle/way of perceiving the world.

Let me ease your fears a little, Raybin. People surely thought I had lost my mind too when I started wearing long dark skirts and covering my hair. I rarely cover my hair anymore, since I really don't have to anyway being unmarried, but I still wear long skirts unless I am going to exercise class; and I have no problem "going out" in loose sweats, although those stricter than I am probably do. The good thing for me is that none of those who would have a problem with it live where I do. So, I don't have to listen to any complaints about it Nevertheless, most of the time I still wear long skirts. People have gotten used to me this way. It no longer causes quite the stir it used to in my small town.

I have never been arrested or taken to the "looney bin", although some people may think I belong there but let me tell you what I think. It could be more than just the change in appearance that is causing the problems for you. When one changes one's whole appearance, the appearance thing is usually small in comparison to all the huge inner changes that leads someone making changes in outward appearance. It may these inner changes in you have triggered a response in others to you - that response being that you "have lost your mind". Likely, your whole personality is morphing along with your appearance and other people can't understand why. Naturally, they assume mental illness. In parallel, changing one's whole lifeview can cause inner conflict as well, particlarly in the early stages when one is ill-equipped for dealing with significant inner upheavel and deconstruction-reconstruction. People may be picking up on this "inner chaos". I've been seriously studying for over 9 years and my life is still reverberating with the fallout of reorienting my life. I certainly wasn't prepared and am still waiting for the dust to settle. I am already wondering if it ever settles?

Even if it doesn't, your ability to deal with the inner chaos will improve eventually. Be patient with yourself and with those who may not understand what is happening to you.

Even if you have ever been married you should cover your hair.

Raybin,
That raises an interesting halachic question. I don't know if Lori was married to a Jew or not. But for a moment let's assume her ex- was not Jewish. The halacha would not regard her as being married. Is the nakedness that requires covering her hair "marital nakedness" or a "sexual nakedness"? Within the Jewish paradigm it's the same thing but if a Jew were in a relationship with a Goy it's not considered marriage.
If she is regarded as not being married halachically does she need to cover her hair...especially after the divorce?

Maybe I am using the wrong terminology, but I think there are other opinions on that aren't there? Well, probably if I lived in an orthodox community where it would be an issue of modesty, I probably would cover my hair. But, I don't live in such an environment and employers around here are not sympathetic. The long skirt cause me enough problems and when I did cover my hair I was thrown out of a courtroom (I was there as moral support for someone) because I wouldn't remove my hat. After about a year of those kinds of hassles, and not being married, I decided I needed to live more than I needed the hat at this point in my life. I am doing good with the long skirts for where I am at, I think.

Only married women need to cover their hair.

Following a divorce or being widowed, I think it depends on the custom of the community.

I do know of instances where jews have been stopped because they were walking to shul on shabbat. I mean who walks in good neighborhoods? This presented a difficulty as of course the person had no identification.
Another problem of no one walking on streets in the suburbs is the total failure of drivers to anticipate anyone walking (one friend was almost killed and never recovered fully) and the dogs are constantly menancing passerbys. I know a Rav who left his congregation in Mongomery AL because he was just to nervous to walk to shul anymore.

Aryeh Shore

I would like to add to this tangent seeing that Raybin is not yet taking much of the opportunity to speak. I am married to a goy . (Please do not assume anything here. It is a long story. And, when I got married, I was lost and had not found my way "home") .Does that make my children mamzers ?

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Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Raybin,
That raises an interesting halachic question. I don't know if Lori was married to a Jew or not. But for a moment let's assume her ex- was not Jewish. The halacha would not regard her as being married. Is the nakedness that requires covering her hair "marital nakedness" or a "sexual nakedness"? Within the Jewish paradigm it's the same thing but if a Jew were in a relationship with a Goy it's not considered marriage.
If she is regarded as not being married halachically does she need to cover her hair...especially after the divorce?

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
I would like to add to this tangent seeing that Raybin is not yet taking much of the opportunity to speak. I am married to a goy . (Please do not assume anything here. It is a long story. And, when I got married, I was lost and had not found my way "home") .Does that make my children mamzers ?

No it doesn't. A mamzer is the child of a relationship that is forbidden by the Torah and for which there is the death penalty, for example a married woman who has a child by a man other than her husband.

So if you are Jewish, then your children are 100% Jewish.

The covering of hair is a bit of a hot topic in the US. We know that halacha says women should cover their hair. The Rambam says all post-puberscent women should cover their hair. Some Teimani hold by this. The rest say only married women should cover, but even then, different communities have different minhagim, as Yisroel Phillips pointed out, especially after divorce or widowhood. Some cover completely, others do it partially and it becomes a negotiation of inches and centimetres...etc.

Then there are the wigs; some say they are okay, some think they are defeating the purpose. Among those who say they are okay, perhaps wigs from India may not be so good. Some Modern Orthodox women simply follow their mothers' custom. Since many of the frum women today did not have frum mothers this creates its own realities.

While men should really not do tefilla in the presence of women whose hair is not covered (this is a separate halacha), many women who usually do not cover will do it going to shul, weddings etc.

We really like to make things difficult for ourselves!

Maybe the reason the women who only cover their head in shul is because they don't want to be accused by the public of acting strangely.

I did not get back to you for awhile because my computer was on the blink. Then when I did I saw that the post was on the back burner so I just wanted to leave it alone. But now that it is taken out again, I guess I owe an explanation. Perhaps I was wrong to make such an issue out of clothes because there is always more to a person than outward appearances. What I mean is that I have been judged on appearances. There is a word used by the mental health establishment that means "too re ligious." I forget what it is. When I dress a certain way, I believe I am judged as being too religious. So that is why I am afraid to wear dresses/skirts and cover my head. At least, not to a doctor's visit. I assume I would have my medication increased or changed, or more frequent visits if I did, since my doctor has already said no.
If I told you that people in the US are taken against their will to mental hospitals even if they aren't a danger to themselves or others you probably wouldn't believe me so I will leave it at that. I was told that I was gravely disabled and that was the excuse. And when I say that they are taken to mental hospitals I mean any hospital that detains the "mentally ill." Anyway, it is a label that I have worked on for quite a few years and am no longer ashamed of because I know who I really am. I am a Jew with a 50/50 chance of Halachic survival, whatever that means. I live in the wilderness of the US. Where I go to get my care is a Christian Hospital, since it is the only hospital around. So you see, there are no Rabbis or Jewish Chaplains available. My Judaism survives in my soul.


It was so long ago that I had those problems that I can't remember the details of what I was doing when I was wearing them. I suppose to most accurately sum it up I was working on a reputation.

The only inner chaos that I have is knowing right and doing wrong.


I hope I answered all of your questions. Unfortunately, I could not tell you the whole story since that would take too long, I have really forgotten it, and don't really know it or do I understand it.

Thank you very much for asking the question.

quote:

If I told you that people in the US are taken against their will to mental hospitals even if they aren't a danger to themselves or others you probably wouldn't believe me so I will leave it at that.

On the contrary, I do believe you. I see it happening frequently as a nurse. Many are also placed in nursing homes because they have no family, no job to support themselves, and no other place to go. The secular mental healthcare system in this country is a mess and rarely effective in helping people beyond the bare minimum, IMO.

quote:

Anyway, it is a label I have worked on for quite a few years and am no longer ashamed because I know who I really am

I understand. I am an outlier on the bell curve of social "normalcy" as well. Not only do I have autistic features to my personality, but I am also extremely introverted and eccentric. I don't have a gift for social chitchat. Nor am I very perceptive of social "clues" for "normal" social interaction. Consequently, I misread people frequently. Life is tough for those of us who are outliers on the human spectrum. Like you, I am ok with who I am now and don't feel ashamed for being "different". We shouldn't feel ashamed. Now, I can even say that I am happy to be different. If people have an illegitimate problem with me because of the way G-d chose to make me - then this is their problem.

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I live in the wilderness of the US

I love the way you said that. I live there too.

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I was working on reputation

You come across as a lovely and sensitive person, with an extraordinarily beautiful soul. (Just in case you are wondering.)