I think a good topic for discussion is Matisyahu and commercialized Judaism

For those who don't know, Matisyahu is a baal teshuva who is also a regge (sorry for the misspelling) singer, he is one of the hottest artists in america today.

Personally I really like his songs. It is a rare to hear such a positive message in "non jewish" music. And I respect the guy because he doesnt sell out and sing about money or drugs or women like his counterparts, but instead sings about love for Hashem and making right decisions in life.

However, with Matisyahu singing about Hashem and being so popular, and every other famous person promoting Kabalah, is it just me or this totally taking holiness away from Judaism and commercializing it?

In other words, is it a question of trying to be ככל הגוים, like all the other nations? It's something I'm not totally comfortable with, although I realise there is a purpose to it.

Does anybody remember a Pasuk that says something about making "known his name among the Goyyim?"

I say "Kol ha-k'vod" to Matisyahu. I believe he is helping gather in the lost sparks of Shechina in these final days before the revelation of Moshiach Tzid-kaenu. I khow several Yidden, far removed from Yiddishkeit, who love and listen to Matisyahu. Its some of the only G-dliness they probably get. If the Goyyim enjoy his music as well- All the better.

By the way- my children often fall asleep listening to his CD.

He gave a concert in Manchester the other evening. The Times (the London one) gave it 4 stars (maximum 5) and a very good review.

I find that many don't like him, and I can't blame these people.

I have met Matityahu socially as he married a girl from the neighborhood. What's your problem.
The problem is people who sing sentences from the bible in their songs. This is not permitted. If he is singing sentences from the bible, I don't know since I am not sure what he is saying. However there is nothing such as treife tune although one should not used tunes which the congregation clearly recognizes from a different source for the prayers.
Our Rabbis have always been reluctant about tellng people how to make a living.

quote:

treife tune although one should not used tunes which the congregation clearly recognizes from a different source for the prayers.

So you would hold its a problem to sing Adon Olam to the tune of the William Tell Overture (Lone Ranger)?

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
I find that many don't like him, and I can't blame these people.

He's a rap singer and rap is probably an acquired taste. If you don't like rap generally, then you probably won't like Matisyahu's songs.

The problem is not neccesarily his music, but rather what he advocates at his concerts. I talked directly to people who went to one of his concerts and was told there is no mechitzahs at all within the crowd. Rather its the complete opposite, as there is a "mosh pit" in the front of the stage where men and women all stand and dance together while he sings his music on the stage above them. And granted that the words of his music don't have any bad meanings, the tune that accomponies the words don't fit at all, and sound no different that any other goy rapper out there. So thus, at his concerts you have girls and guys, dancing together in the middle of this mosh pit, all dancing away together to goyish tunes. Do Jews really want to associate ourselves to this type of practice, let alone, this type of music? I sure hope not!

Jonathan

That is correct you would not sing adon olam to the william tell overture since most people in the audience would associate it with someone else. As for Maoz Zur, this borderline for me as I clearly identify it with Rock of Ages. However many tunes drop from the public conscience within a short time. I have heard that certain Chasidic groups have no problem with Never on Sunday as a Nigun.
Our attitude towards dancing has changed back and forth over the ages. The problem would be with the associated drug culture. I think the use of drugs by jazz bands is pretty well documented and I would not be surprized if Reggae groups are any different.
However, one does not have to attend concerts. The is a Cheredi MK famous for his love of classical music who will not attend concerts.
As for getting one's hands dirty to reach marginal Jews, this is a matter of philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
Our attitude towards dancing has changed back and forth over the ages.

When has mixed dancing ever been considered acceptable.

no mechitza is a problem agreed...but the argument I don't agree with. Do opbservant jews really want to associate with....online text forums??
Matisyahu is making a living, and apperantly gives alot to charity, which could be a problem but he's an observant jew and not doing anything to deviate from this, then it's good for me!

(1) the message;
(2) the message; and
(3) the medium.

(1) the message: Observance is eternally cool. It transcends time, culture, and technology. The audience is not necessarily observant. The noahides suffice at his shows. The observant needn't attend. The mosh pit is not the messsage.
(2) the message: Baruch HaShem. That is the message. More goyim need to hear it.
(3) the medium: I remember listening to Bob Marley's Ay-Ay-Yoh's in Buffalo Soldier and thinking how similar they were to my Zayde's Yi-Di-Di's around the house. Apparently someone else noticed it too. Listen to Matisyahu carefully (or any other reggae artist for that matter). As foreign as you think Reggae, Hip Hip, or (its not actually Rap) Rap, are, you'll find that the music actually comes from a very familiar-feeling place. And it certainly fosters a sense of "it's okay to be observant (or even just Jewish)" among the assimilated.

By the way: the album is GREAT.

We can see from the shutim of the bet chadash (cyprus?)(16 th) , that mixed dancing was very popular with the spanish jews. The dancing was outlawed because a fight broke out when someone danced with someone else's wife and the authorities had to be called in. Similarly we see in the will of Eliezer of Mayence he calls on his married daughters not to dance with non-family members, so it was also common among the French-German Jews.

Quote "However there is nothing such as treife tune"
There is of course a concept of a Treifa tune See OC 53:25 also see MB 82. This may or may not apply to here. (depending on the Girsa.)

Quote "Our Rabbis have always been reluctant about tellng people how to make a living."

See the end of Kiddushin where they did give advice about it. Also they said that it should be easy and CLEAN. (Kal V'Nikiya)

Even if there is no explicit commandment "Thou shall not listen to rap music," yet it still could fall under other categories (like the Ramban's Kodshim Tiyu.) I don't think it's a coincidence that in general rap is associated with the lowest dregs of society (if they're still included with society.) That's why generally the "lyrics" contain the most horrendous antisocial messages (Or worse.) Though this is very subjective, the beat in rap is a very animalistic, and itself is enough to refrain from it. It would lead to Kilkul Hamidus.

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
We can see from the shutim of the bet chadash (cyprus?)(16 th) , that mixed dancing was very popular with the spanish jews. The dancing was outlawed because a fight broke out when someone danced with someone else's wife and the authorities had to be called in. Similarly we see in the will of Eliezer of Mayence he calls on his married daughters not to dance with non-family members, so it was also common among the French-German Jews.

I'm sorry but I looked in Shut HaBach siman 16 both in the old Shut and in the Chadashos but found no mention of mixed dancing. I also could not find the "will of Eliezer of Mayence", could you please tell me where it is printed.

I think that if you read Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 21 it would be self evident that mixed dancing could never have been condoned halachically. If it was prevalent, it must have been only with rebellious delinquents. The only instance that was somewhat condoned was dancing with a bride with no physical contact, a "mitzvah" tantz. This was a special dispensation enacted to make her more precious to her husband. Even that was not recommended by most authorities, as the Bach on the Tur there writes that in a community that does not have such a custom it would be forbidden by the letter of the law. See also Even HaEzer 65 where Shulchan Aruch forbids even looking at the face of a bride. See also Pischei Teshuva there where he writes very harshly against youth who conducted mixed dancing. Apparently it was done, but not condoned.

So when you wrote "Our attitude towards dancing has changed back and forth over the ages", it may be true that the attitude of the general public has changed, but halacha has always categorically forbidden it.

Igros Moshe in Even HaEzer 1:96 permits listening to music written by a person who encourages mixed socializing.
Also in YD 2:56 he permits even non-Jewish religious music if it is performed for its musical quality and not for the purpose of Avoda Zarah. However in YD 2:111 he writes that while it is permitted, it is not appropriate.

well i didn't mean bayit chadesh I meant bayit cheder, that is bayit 12 cheder 1 Teshuvot radak. I didn't mean cyprus, I meant Korfu (which is closer than Krakow). Generation of Gerush Sfard.

While you are there, look at bayit 11 cheder 1 about how the Sicillian Jews refuse to be in the same community as the Korfu Jews. There were four groups in all and none were allowed to pray in each other synagogues. The posek said it was permitted. (I think that he knew that within one generation the problem would dissappear which it apparantly did.)

The will of Eliezer of Mayence is in Hebrew Ethical Wills, Part II Chap. 10.

You can throw in the Takanot chachmei pudova that married women should not dance with any man other than on Purim but non-married women can. 17th century.
Bnei Banim I:36.

It is universially agreed that we do not do this today.

Matisyahu recently gave an appearance at the "HASC CHAI - 18" concert.

This link: http://www.mostlymusic.com/hasc-hasc-p-2711.html has Matisyahu featured.

However, I saw a video of the same concert and it didn't have Matisyahu featured.

I wonder, if anyone knows, why there are two versions of the video - one with his appearance, and one without?