Go to Our New Site
| Go to Our New Site
|
Read-Only Topic|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Notify
|
Tools
|
 |
A Friend of mine suggested (after studying the genealogies in Torah)that Noach was at least partly contemporary with Avram, and that it would account for Avram's discovery of ONE G-d and subsequent 'sudden'departure from Ur.
Any thoughts? Could it be possible that Noach was still alive when Avram was living in Ur, and that Avram was taught by Noach, and that he departed from Chaldea at the death of Noach, his teacher? Shalom, Dov |
||
|
 |
I don't think that Noach and Avraham were contemporary.
I think it is derived that Avraham was approximately 45 years old at the time of the Bavel dispersion. Malkizedek however is another name of Shem, one of Noach's sons, and Avraham and Malkizedek were certainly around at the same time! And Shem was on Noach's ark of course. |
|||
|
|
|
This certainly put another light on the role of Malkizedek's blessing Avraham, and it also twists the matter of the Noachide laws a bit. Another piece in the puzzle for me - thank you! |
|||
|
GY Moderator |
I have a Chumash with a time line table at the back. It shows that Avraham was born in 1948 and Noach died in 2006. I don't know if they ever met.
|
|||
|
Volunteer |
Well, if i remember correctly, that Avroham and Noach did overlap.
|
|||
|
 |
Actually I recently heard a shiur on this topic that reconciled the posuk "ish tzadik tamim haya b'dorosav," with the rashi that says if Noach had been in the generation of Avraham Avinu- he would not have been considered anything special. I dont remember who gave the shiur or where i heard it- but what was brought is the question:
how can rashi say such a thing when chronologically speaking- there WAS an overlap in the latter part of Noach's life with the beginning of Avrahams?! The reconcilation came about through the anylization of the word "b'dorasav" - in HIS generations. Although both Noach and Avraham lived within the same span of time for at least a short period of years, we see that as Kohelos describes a sun going down and another rising- that a generation only has one central leader at a time. the "b'dorosav" was in noach's generation- as leader. And when his generations of leadership had passed into the hands of Avraham- it became Avraham's leadership. So we see that although the span of years they lived overlapped- the span of years that they were the tzadik of the generation did NOT overlap- for there can be no two suns at the same time. One must first set before the other can take its rise. Just a comment on the overlap of years... |
|||
|
 |
Noach and Avraham were contemporaries. I would imagine that even if they did not meet personally, Avraham may have heard of Noach, and perhaps that did influence him somewhat.
As for his departure from Ur Casdim, it was not sudden. In fact, he left Ur with Terach his father. I believe that he only left his father's household on the request of G-d, and not because of the death of his teacher. |
|||
|
|
Volunteer |
Well, what with all the Jewish leaders of today? There can be said that there are quite a few "suns". How does that get reconciled? |
|||
|
 |
Can we assume here that everyone living after Noach was a descendent of Noach, including Avraham avinu, since the deluge had destroyed everyone else...basically. In fact, would Melchizedek be a grandparent of sorts to Avraham avinu?
|
|||
|
|
|
Avraham is descended from Shem - the lineage is in the plain text.
Og is the only exception, its said, I guess in midrash, that he held onto the outside of the ark and Noach gave him food through the window. For me, I cannot figure out where Sichon came from - the other giant who was taken out in Moshe's time, but I assume he was a close relative of Og. Noach's wife Naama is the only known descendent of Kayin, through the first Lemch, who survived the flood, although I guess its possible that Noach's sons could have married women who were descended from Kayin. |
|||
|
|
|
Interestingly, although only 8 people are recorded as having survived the Mabul, there were enough people just several hundred years later to be split into different nations at the incident of the Tower of BAvel. Was there some sort of Divine intervention, similar to that at Mitzrayim, wherby people procreated in large numbers? |
|||
|
|
|
It seems to me that the Torah does not concern itself with personality matters. My meaning being that the strategic emphasis of the Torah centers upon the brit relationship with the Elohim whereas the individuals that cut this brit relationship there chief purpose in this great literature being to thereby define the nature of the oath/brit that distinguishes a bnai brit person from a non bnai brit barbarian.
Next. That Noach understood a deeper revelation of the commandments relationship than did Adam HaReshon did not make the brit of Noach different than the brit of Adam. So too that Moshe our Teacher made a quantum revelation of the commandment Torah relationship did not change the brit. The brit with Elohim constitutes as one simple brit. Next. Why does the Torah single out by means of the lives of the Avot, this includes Noach, forbidden sexual relations? Noach vs Ham, Avraham vs Paraoh and Avimelech; Yitzak vs Avimelech; Yaacov and the daughters of Lavan; the rape of Dinah; Yehudah and Tamar; Yosef and the wife of his master. A brit requires an oath. No oath no brit period. The oath of bnai noach entails swearing not to do acts of sexual immodesty, theft and oppression unto ones bnai brit peoples. Whereas the Avot had doubts whether people abided by the brit bnai noach, by the time of the Book of Shemote clearly the king of Egypt who did not know Yosef, leaves no doubt that the goyim were abandoning the brit of Noach. And this is exactly how the Talmud teaches. Consider the Addadah of the revelation of the Torah at Sinai where the Elohim asks Esau and Ismael if they would accept the Torah and they refused. Even descendents of Avraham abandoned the brit of Noach. The people of Israel currently qualify as the only descendents of the multitude of nations that Avraham would father that remain as guardians of the brit of Noach. On Yom HaKippor when the reading of the Torah centers upon forbidden sexual relations you might now possess an understanding of why our sages chose this particular public reading on the very day when the judgment upon the brit is sealed. Avraham cut a brit with Avimelech because both men publically declared their commitment unto the brit of Noach, that's why Avraham separated the 7 sheep! This explains the struggle over the wells in the time of Yitzak. The sons of Yaacov felt justified in taking there revenge upon Shcem because these people cut an oath with intent to profane that oath; when the descendents of Adam profaned their oath/brit the floods destroyed the world, why should the inhabitants of Shcem be spared when they profaned their oath/brit? The Elohim supported Yaacov and sent fear into the surrounding Ahmay Ha'aretz. The Torah begins with Genesis and not Shemote because the other 4 books of the Torah have a bittl relationship unto the 1st book of the Torah. with respect, Moshe |
|||
|
 |
Shalom R'Moshe, if I have understood you correctly, you have suggested that Bnei Israel today ought to make an oath on a sefer Torah in order to establish their brit with HaShem. Am I wrong in what I had thought until now that Am Israel are already referred to as "Bnai Brit" by virture of being Jewish (I.e. as an inheritance) - why would it be neccesary to renew something that is already in force, according to Torah? Shabbat Shalom, Aaron |
|||
|
|
|
Aaron shalom,
Yes i hold that every person in every generation has an obligation to cut an oath/brit. with respect, moshe |
|||
|
|
|
Shalom Moshe, may I ask what is the basis for your position? Aaron |
|||
|
|
|
Maybe Moshe is refering to Bris Mila?
|
|||
|
|
GY Moderator |
He wrote "every person" which includes women.
|
|||
|
|
|
Yes that's correct, i hold everyone has to cut a brit. Cutting a brit requires something much sharper than a knife. To do a melah upon one's heart requires an oath. The bottem line of cutting a brit, living in the precesence of the Elohim.
1st. A brit requires an oath. Examine how the Avot behaved when they cut a brit. 2nd. Making a proper blessing constitutes as a form of an oath. Check out Havakook 3:9; Rabbi Avika on the inclusion of the havadala blessing as a blessing in and of itself. The proof that R. Yochannan and Resh Lakish bring to understand the intent of R. Akiva; B'hag's understanding of the tiqqun of king David's 100 blessings a day. 3rd. A blessing requires kavvana - Name and Kingship. Baali Tosafot learns Elohi Avraham as if it were written King of the universe. Migilat Ester requires kavvana as well. Check out end of third perach Rosh Hashanna in the Mishneh. Also the middot of R. Yossi HaGalle specifically number 29 a numerical value can be a hint. המלך and המן both equal 95. both require kavvanah, one: choice of accepting the Torah. two: wiping away the remembrance of Amelek. 4th a person can make an oath with tefilen. A person should say krea sma with tefilen. 5th a person can make an oath while standing before a safer torah. The 3 prayers, the best place to pray is in the bet kenesset. Praying a person in effect stands before a safer torah. with respect, moshe |
|||
|
|
GY Moderator |
Does anyone else hold this, or are you a da'as yechido'i? |
|||
|
 |
B"H
Moshe, It is implied by the Talmud that it is not necessary for each Jew, in each generation, to renew his covenant with G-d (kores bris), since the covenant is passed down unto him automatically. The Talmud brings the example of what we would do with that person who says that he swears by a solemn oath not to perform a certain "mitzvas aseh," in order to make himself exempt from the commandment. The Gemara says that this is virtually impossible, since he has (as it were) already sworn at Sinai to perform all the commandments. His sworn oath is rendered null and void by a prior oath. The Rabbis have furthermore said: כל ×”×ž×ª× ×” על מה שכתוב בתורה ×ª× ×ו בטל (Translation) "Anyone who makes a stipulation against that which is written in the Torah, his stipulation becomes null and void." It would seem to me that this "covenant" between G-d and every Jew is automatically passed down, and is eternal, even an on-going covenant that does not require renewal with each subsequent generation. Sincerely, David Ben-Abraham |
|||
|
| Previous Topic | Next Topic | powered by eve community | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
|||
| Site | GlobalYeshiva.com | ||
| Servlet | eve1da019 | ||
| Version | 1.3.0 build 9368 | ||
| Module | Forums 4.0.3 | ||
| Stylesheet | "1.6.1" | ||
| Wordlet Set | "Default Wordlet Set" | ||
Read-Only Topic
