why is it not possible for a Talmud Chochom of this gernation be equal or even exceed that of an earlier generation while the earlier gernation maintain this honor and respect tehy should properly be given?

A great Talmud Chacham such as the Vilna Gaon was able to span generations and was considered like a Rishon. Yet no one would consider the Vilna Gaon an Amora. It is a fact that the earlier generations were greater and there are many sources to testify to this.

Like it says in Shabbath 112b: R. Zera said in Raba b. Zimuna's name: If the earlier scholars were sons of angels, we are sons of men; and if the earlier scholars were sons of men, we are like asses, and not even like asses of R. Hanina b. Dosa and R. Phinehas b. Jair (who were intelligent) but like other asses.

hmm.. i should have been more clear for it is without question the Tanniam and the amoraim are in a leauge by themselves. for they were in direct contact with the compliers of the Gemora. however i am more speaking of the Achorim and the Rishonim for the Talmud Chachom of this gernation to be in leauge with them.

I think it has nothing to do with greater or equal to any earlier chachamim. I think it has everything to do with Tziniut on the part of our Gedolei Torah of the past century.

To say that Harav Feinstein and Harav Soleveitchik Zichronam Levracha are anything less then brilliant or more as the earlier generations is insulting to the memory of the earlier Chachamim. I doubt any of our Chazal would be less then totally Joyous that their Talmidim and Grand Talmidim, took their learning and ran with it. What father who raises a child in Hashems Torah way is not proud that the child has outshone him in Middot and Torah. To be able to see your students grow greater in Torah then you is a zhcut to your your teaching I would imagine.

I say it is possible but of course Tzniut regarding their place amongst benai israel is the first thing they master and forbids them to acknowledge any accolades of greatness.

quote:

Originally posted by Mack K:
why is it not possible for a Talmud Chochom of this gernation be equal or even exceed that of an earlier generation while the earlier gernation maintain this honor and respect tehy should properly be given?

What do you do with these Gemaras? There are clear sources which state there is a decline in generations. I have more Gemaras if you want.

Eiruvin 53a
R. Johanan further stated: The hearts of the ancients were like the door of the Ulam, but that of the last generations was like the door of the Hekal, but ours is like the eye of a fine needle. R. Akiba is classed among the ancients; R. Eleazar b. Shammua among the last generations. Others say: R. Eleazar b. Shammua is classed among the ancients and R. Oshaia Beribi among the last generations —‘But ours is like the eye of a fine needle’ — And we, said Abaye, are like a peg in a wall in respect of Gemara. And we, said Raba, are like a finger in wax as regards logical argument. We, said R. Ashi, are like a finger in a pit as regards forgetfulness.

Shabbath 112b: R. Zera said in Raba b. Zimuna's name: If the earlier scholars were sons of angels, we are sons of men; and if the earlier scholars were sons of men, we are like asses, and not even like asses of R. Hanina b. Dosa and R. Phinehas b. Jair (who were intelligent) but like other asses.

I wonder if the idea that later generations can't argue with earlier generations always applies. Amoraim couldn't argue or take issue with with Tannaim unless they had other Tannaim to rely on. Yet it seems to me that Rishonim could argue with Geonim. Perhaps not all of the Geonim were on the level of Rav Hai, Rav Sherira and Rav Saadia. In addition we know that halacha k'basrai, presumably because the later generations know what the earlier generations said and they also know the later historical circumstances and developments.

In addition, the idea that the later generations are always weaker in Torah goes against the rules of almost everything else in the world. Each generation of athletes breaks the records of the previous generations. Each generation of science advances scientific knowledge. The only reaon that I can think of why this doesn't apply to Torah is that each generation is further fron Har Sinai than its predecessors. I wouldn't think that Hashem used up all the superior neshamos in earlier generations and now he only sends down inferior ones.

Perhaps someone could elucidate further.

ShmuelArye

quote:

Quote from Mack K: "hmm.. i should have been more clear for it is without question the Tanniam and the amoraim are in a leauge by themselves. for they were in direct contact with the compliers of the Gemora. however i am more speaking of the Achorim and the Rishonim for the Talmud Chachom of this gernation to be in leauge with them."

quote:

Quote from Rabbi Mitterhoff:"Eiruvin 53a
R. Johanan further stated: The hearts of the ancients were like the door of the Ulam, but that of the last generations was like the door of the Hekal, but ours is like the eye of a fine needle. R. Akiba is classed among the ancients; R. Eleazar b. Shammua among the last generations. Others say: R. Eleazar b. Shammua is classed among the ancients and R. Oshaia Beribi among the last generations —‘But ours is like the eye of a fine needle’ — And we, said Abaye, are like a peg in a wall in respect of Gemara. And we, said Raba, are like a finger in wax as regards logical argument. We, said R. Ashi, are like a finger in a pit as regards forgetfulness.

Shabbath 112b: R. Zera said in Raba b. Zimuna's name: If the earlier scholars were sons of angels, we are sons of men; and if the earlier scholars were sons of men, we are like asses, and not even like asses of R. Hanina b. Dosa and R. Phinehas b. Jair (who were intelligent) but like other asses."

I might be completely out to lunch on this one, and shouldn't even be in this discussion and this not applicable at all, but...what about Avot 1:4

"Yossi ben (son of) Yo'ezer of Ts'raidah and Yossi ben Yochanan of Jerusalem received the transmission from them. Yossi ben Yo'ezer used to say, let your house be a meeting place for the Sages, sit in the dust of their feet, and drink thirstily their words."

To me 'Sages' implies the preceeding generation and 'sit in the dust of their feet' implies that they are 'above' the succeeding generations, regardless of whether their wisdom/teaching overshadow them or not, by simple virtue of being closer to Moshe Rabbenu in time.

If I am off here, please correct me.

Dov

I am no expert on this one, but if I may, I would like to express my humble opinion.

Their closeness to Moshe Rabbeinu in time is not that much of an issue, I think. After all, Korach was even closer to Moshe in time, while Joshua was of the next generation.

Modern science has advanced the knowledge of mankind far beyond the wildest imaginings of the Chazal, except for those who had the Nevuah. But have we become wiser? I don't think so. Wisdom of each generation, if there had ever been a way to measure it directly, would not be changing over millenia. It is an inherent property of our brain, of our species.

On the other hand, in our days, when one 3-year-old child says, "my daddy knows everything", and his or her friend replies, "my daddy knows more" - it is sweet, very philosophical, extremely mathematical (try to compare two infinities!), and ultimately meaningless unless the two daddies become engaged in a debate that would prove how much more one knows than the other.

Now let's imagine that someone said that he was as wise and knew as much as R" Hillel. How can that be proved without an actual debate between this someone and R" Hillel from 2000 years ago?

It is out of respect for the Sages of older generations, we say that we can only sit at their feet and drink their wisdom. But if we do not advance our knowledge, our wisdom based on what they said, then it is called stagnation, and that is absolutely against what Hashem wants us to do: stagnation leads to death, but we are to "choose life". And BTW, if the Sages found out that we chose to kiss the dirt at their feet instead of developing their ideas further, they would not be happy.

R' Mitterhoff, At this time i don't know.

Alex wrote:

quote:

Their closeness to Moshe Rabbeinu in time is not that much of an issue, I think. After all, Korach was even closer to Moshe in time, while Joshua was of the next generation.

Didn't Korach disqulify himself from being counted among the Sages by his rebellion against Moshe and Aharon in Parasha Korach? Isn't being Righteous a requirement for being counted among the Sages? In that case, Korach wasn't even on the 'Sages Roster' when Joshua took over, because he rebbelled against Moshe and was subsequently killed by Hashem as punishment.

Just a thought.
Dov

Dov, my point about Korach was that he was in the same generation as Moshe; yet he disqualified himself. Being close in time does not mean being close in soul and in thinking. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

R' Mitterhoff please if you have more please present them. for surely it is without question the Tannim who lived in the time of the Beit HaMikdash then the amorims as well as we who do not live in such times. for it is without question teh Tannim supass all others for even the ingorent know the laws dealing with the Beit HaMikdash and it's offerings.

yet even still i desire not compare even the amorim to ourselves but rather the rishonim and later.

what can this be compare to? the given of the Torah at Mount Sinai. for surely those who expereince the given of the TOrah are on a higher level then those of later generation. however we learn that Ahiyah HaShiloni learn the Torah from David and his court though he experince the given of the Torah. and if you say he was ignorent in the days of Moshe. then even Moshe requested of HaShem to know why HaShem choose him over R' Akiva since he has a deeper grasp of the Torah and it's crowns. from this one learns that also that even the ignorent in later gernation and even the Talmid Chachom of later can suppass the earlier.

quote:

Now let's imagine that someone said that he was as wise and knew as much as R" Hillel. How can that be proved without an actual debate between this someone and R" Hillel from 2000 years ago?

Just because there can't be a debate, doesn't mean there are no other ways to deduce it. FI, I can now say that I could be a better physist than Einstein. Hey, we can't debate, so who knows?

So obviously, there are ways to deduce who's better even after their death. You just need to deduce it.

And maybe you are a better physicist than Einstein. You just never tried physics as a career. In science, everything is subject to questioning and doubts, again and again, which is why when they do come up with something, and it survives the experimentations and testing, they announce a theory, based on which they develop farther and farther, extending human knowledge.

Shalom Alex and thanks for the clarification

quote:

Dov, my point about Korach was that he was in the same generation as Moshe; yet he disqualified himself. Being close in time does not mean being close in soul and in thinking. (my bold) Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

Well, I certainly thought that was sort the prerequisite for even being on the Sages Roster - that what one teaches is Torah, which means that any of the Judges appointed by Moshe presceeded Joshua, provided they taught Torah.

quote:

Well, I certainly thought that was sort the prerequisite for even being on the Sages Roster - that what one teaches is Torah, which means that any of the Judges appointed by Moshe presceeded Joshua, provided they taught Torah.

What I am trying to say is that hardly seems fair to compare Korach to Joshua, as one was wicked and the other not, and one would assume that when we are talking about the Sages we are strictly talking about men who were not wicked - as I said in my previous post - Korach wasn't on the Sages' Roster at all. So why are you bringing him up? That's what puzzles me.

I hear you, Dov. Well, maybe I picked the wrong characters for comparison. My point was that even being in the same generation as Moshe does not necessarily make a person better, wiser, or more knowledgeable than someone from a later generation, and it is impossible to say who was a greater Sage - Maimonides, Akiva, Hillel, the Maharal, the Ari, the Besht, the Vilna Gaon, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Some even think that Shabbetai Tzvi was the greatest sage of all times, and how are we going to dissuade them?

“And maybe you are a better physicist than Einstein. You just never tried physics as a career. “

My point is, as I am now am I a better physicist. Especially, that all his writing are to me gobbly gook, so obviously he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. 

Well, obviously, I’m not as great as Einstein as a physicist and I don’t need to have a debate with him to figure it out. (and even if we debated, I can always claim that I won the debate.) The point is that we must turn to the experts in the field. The experts in Torah would be able to tell by the writing who’s authoritative more than others. Even if we can’t figure out ourselves, we can still deduce through who we know are greater than us in Torah and see who the revere.

Thus if I respects A’s opinion and A respects B and B respects C etc. Then I know that the order of greatness is Z then Y etc.

Shalom Alex,

Ok. Provided that we are talking about men who are all on the Sages Roster - it's a bit like the game 'Telephone' - where one picks a word or a sentence and then passes it on via whispering to the next in line - what was originally whispered is very seldom what comes out at the other end. Same thing here - the further away from Moshe Rabbeinu we get the greater risk that the message gets garbled.

There might be a handful along the way who are able to reconstruct through deduction what the original message was and pass that on, but the more mouths and minds there is between the original whisperer and the final speaker, the greater opportunity for the message to 'lost'.

Dov

Shalom Dov,

That's true, and that's why we have Tanach and Talmud. To make sure there was nothing "lost in translation/transmission". But I think whenever we hear or read a statement by any man of the earlier generations, it is our duty to the early generations to analyze it and try to reconstruct what was meant there; we have to look at the time and place when and where it was said and separate the temporal polemics and rhetoric from the eternal wisdom of the message. And it is my feeling that every single phrase has to be analyzed in the historic and local context; otherwise we are following the words of men (Sages, for sure, but not Prophets) without even thinking why we are doing so.