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Posted
B"H
Does anyone here know the story of Yehudith, and will they be willing to share this with me? How is it connected to Chanuka?
Sincerely, David Ben-Abraham
 
Posts: 1031 | Location: Israel | Registered: December 05, 2005Report This Post

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David,

The story of Yehudith is about a Jewish widow who got an enemy's general drunk and then chopped his head off. The general's name was Holofernes, an Assyrian general, in which case the connection with Chanukah becomes strained, as the Assyrian army was disbanded in the Babylonian times.

All of that, however, comes from a much later Catholic book of Judith. The story is missing from Tanach or the Chronicles, and knowing how much free play the Christian authorities have had with the historical texts, it doesn't surprise me.

Here's a web site that seems to make sense out of the timeline:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/judith.htm

"Nebuchadnezzar, for example, is said to have wanted "to destroy all local gods so that the nations should worship Nebuchadnezzar alone and people of every language and nationality should hail him as a god" (3:8). Yet it was the Seleucids, not the Assyrians or Babylonians, whose kings first insisted on divine honors. In that case, "Nebuchadnezzar" might represent Antiochus IV, while "Holofernes" may stand for his general Nicanor, "Assyrians" for the Seleucid Syrians, and "Nineveh" for Antiochus's capital Antioch. This interpretation is supported by the existence of a Hebrew Midrash that tells the story of Judith in an abbreviated form, explicitly assigning it to the period of Seleucid oppression."

In other words, what the world knows as the story of Judith and Holofernes is in all likelhood the story of Yehudith and Nicanor. The events did take place during the Maccabean uprising, and that's why during Chanukah we celebrate Yehudith's heroism.
 
Posts: 451 | Location: California | Registered: October 11, 2004Report This Post

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B"H
Thank-you, Alex, for sharing this piece of information with us.
Sincerely,
David
 
Posts: 1031 | Location: Israel | Registered: December 05, 2005Report This Post

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You're welcome. Another interesting aspect of this story is that the Christian clergy (at least the Eastern Orthodox; I don't know about the Catholic clergy) used the artificial confusion in the timeline to interpret it as a metaphore of how treacherous we are: "Judith is the metaphore of all the Jews", they said. "Don't trust them; they'll get you drunk and then destroy you."
 
Posts: 451 | Location: California | Registered: October 11, 2004Report This Post

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Alex;
I'm not sure the Goyim even needed an excuse to persecute Jews. We thought the Shoa may have brought some sanity to the Goyish soul, but when you hear what Iran's president is saying, and Jews being murdered in US prisons and there is no outrage, it should tell you something.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post

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Moshe,

The words of Iran's president do not appeal to doubters. Stories like the deformed story of Judith do. BTW, what are Jews doing in prisons, anyway?
 
Posts: 451 | Location: California | Registered: October 11, 2004Report This Post

Picture of Avi d'Israeli
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Jews still get thrown into prison for dubious crimes. Other Jews simply don't have good Jewish lawyers. We have a history of innocent Jews being sent to the gallows. That will not end anytime soon.

Again, the Goyim don't need a reason to persecute the Jews. From time to time we do create a reason fro them but if you look at history, most reasons given for the persecution of Jews were fabricated.

In the case of Judith, it's true the clergy use Judith as the metaphor of all the Jews, but they could have used any other object lesson of Jews for their purpose.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post
Volunteer

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There is even a website - http://www.jewishprisonerservices.org/ - that is out to help Jewish people in prison.
 
Posts: 854 | Location: USA | Registered: March 10, 2005Report This Post

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Of course there are Jews in prisons, but I thought that in the US there should not be: we are supposed to be an example of ethical behavior. Anyway, sorry about sidetracking the discussion.

True, goyim do not need a reason to persecute us, but they do need a reason to get the masses to hate us. And the story of Judith comes in very handy here, right between the Beilis and the Dreyfus cases
 
Posts: 451 | Location: California | Registered: October 11, 2004Report This Post

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Alex,
The Jew I had in mind is Earl Krugel. Sure we are supposed to be a good example and stay out of trouble.
________________________________________________

A Jewish extremist who plotted to blow up a mosque in California and the office of a US-Lebanese congressman has been killed in jail.

Earl Krugel, 62, died after an assault on Friday at the federal prison in Phoenix, Arizona, the FBI said.

A spokesman said that a homicide investigation had been launched, without giving any further details.

Krugel - a Jewish Defence League member - was jailed for 20 years in September after admitting the plot charges. BBC
________________________________________________

Without making any political statements, I would not necessarily call Krugel a bad example. I didn't know him personally and in view of our ongoing war I would not consider his actions a "bad example"....perhaps misguided on tactical issues, but not a rasha.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post
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