Since I don't have place on my own website to bring my ha'aros on the Minchas Chinuch, I'll bring them here

See today's post
http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org/index.php?option=com_co...=view&id=23&Itemid=1

I can answer why a Ger is Yoitze with the kids he had as a Goy though at that time he was not obligated in the Mitzvah?

I think you can say that the Mitzva is to make kids, but only if you still need to fill the gap of having two kids. Once someone has two kids, then he's exempt, not because he has two kids he's actively doing the Mitzva, but he's no longer obligated, since he doesn't have a gap of not having children.

In other words, not having two kids is a condition of the Mitzvah. Without missing the two kids, there is no Mitzah, just like someone without a left arm has no Mitzvah to put on T'Fillin.

So when he had children as a Goy, though he never did the Mitzva while he was obligated, when he becomes a Ger he's not missing having two children, so he's never obligated in the Mitzvah from the start, though he never did the Mitzvah

Rav Chaim,

1. Is the mitzvah to procreate exclusive to Jews or it's a mitzvah fro goyim too?

2. Does the mitzvah to procreate stand alone, or does it stand within the context of a Jewish family? In other words, in the Shema we mention that we will teach our children etc...but if we don't have Jewish children we can't really say that.

3. Does a geyr have the obligation to establish a Jewish family if he has already sired children as a goy? (This is about a Jewish family unit, not children per se).

4. Is it perfectly acceptable for a geyr to remain single since his obligation for procreation is non-existent?

5. If he marries, surely his tacit obligation to have children by the woman who hasn't yet had children still stands. (by this I'm alluding to the fact that while a man has the obligation to procreate for himself, he also has the tacit obligation to procreate for his wife).

Avi

Rav Chaim,
Syllogistically, if a geyr has the obligation NOT to spill seed, he has a de facto obligation to procreate.
Avi

Quote "Syllogistically, if a geyr has the obligation NOT to spill seed, he has a de facto obligation to procreate."

Not necessary, it's a Machlokes between R' Tam, who holds that the two areas are dependent. The Ramban holds that spilling seed is independently prohibitted.

It would also answer the question of the Minchas chinuch in this post
http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18

Why are you Yoitze if someone has children with someone who's forbidden to him? Why isn't it Mitzva Habah B'Aveira?

Since it's not that you did the Mitzva, rather, since you have children, you become exempt from the Mitzva and you have no obligation to have more because of P'ru Ur'ivu

Rav Chaim,

You said,

quote:

Not necessary, it's a Machlokes between R' Tam, who holds that the two areas are dependent. The Ramban holds that spilling seed is independently prohibited.

1. About the machlokes; sure, halacha may be independent but biology is not. If a man cannot spill seed, he has to emplace it in a womb. The emplacement of seed in a womb presumes procreation. It is not logical "biologically" to require the emplacement of seed in a womb "for the sake of it". Procreation may not occur, but that's the problem of the Kadosh Baruch Hu. I once had a patient who was still menstruating at the age of 67....but I'm sure her eggs were "stale" by then.

2. As the geyr emerges from the mikveh, he is a new creation, childless and unrelated to his goy children. If the sages want to exempt him from the obligation that's fine, but he is still a new creation unrelated to his past.

Whenever we plant a field, we always have the presumption of harvest, unless there is a compelling reason otherwise. In this case, that reason escapes me. Perhaps it's simply a schok?

Avi

Rav Chaim,

You did not touch on this one;

quote:

If he marries, surely his tacit obligation to have children by the woman, who hasn't yet had children, still stands. (by this I'm alluding to the fact that while a man has the obligation to procreate for himself, he also has the tacit obligation to procreate for his wife).

Am I correct in this view? While women do not have the overt obligation to procreate they have at least a tacit one through their husbands, right? So if the geyr married a woman who hasn't had children, or even if she has had children, does he not have this tacit obligation on his wife's behalf?

Avi

Isn't everyone in the world, Jewish women and non-Jews obligated in the Mitzvah of Lashevet [to populate the world]?

Yisroel,

I agree with you. But I believe we are looking at two separate issues;

1. Producing more human beings
2. Establishing Jewish families.

Everyone has the mitzvah of the first but only Jews have the mitzvah of the second. A geyr cannot establish a Jewish family with his goyish children.

Avi

quote:

2. Establishing Jewish families.

... only Jews have the mitzvah of the second. A geyr cannot establish a Jewish family with his goyish children.

So if a Jewish woman has a mitzvah to have Jewish offspring, and every goy has a possible Noachide mitzvah to procreate, can a Jewish woman fulfill her mitzvah through a union with a goy?

Either in a case a Jewish woman raped by a gentile soldier or cossack, or in a case of an impermissible mixed marriage, if she has a Jewish child sired by a goy, has she fulfilled her procreation mitzvah?

1. Is the mitzvah to procreate exclusive to Jews or it's a mitzvah fro goyim too?
After Maten Torah it's only for Jews

2. Does the mitzvah to procreate stand alone, or does it stand within the context of a Jewish family? In other words, in the Shema we mention that we will teach our children etc...but if we don't have Jewish children we can't really say that.
It's a Mitzva by itself. (Of course that's one of it's obvious purposes)

3. Does a geyr have the obligation to establish a Jewish family if he has already sired children as a goy? (This is about a Jewish family unit, not children per se).
The Rambam holds that the children also must convert to be Yoitze. the tosfos says it doesn't

4. Is it perfectly acceptable for a geyr to remain single since his obligation for procreation is non-existent?
there is still an Inyun to have more children plus he needs to be married to keep him from bad thoughts.

5. If he marries, surely his tacit obligation to have children by the woman who hasn't yet had children still stands. (by this I'm alluding to the fact that while a man has the obligation to procreate for himself, he also has the tacit obligation to procreate for his wife).
Woman are not obligated in P'ru Ur'vu.

Quote "If a man cannot spill seed, he has to emplace it in a womb. "

Or keep it in himself.

Quote ". As the geyr emerges from the mikveh, he is a new creation, childless and unrelated to his goy children. "

So, you hold like Reish Lukish

My explanation for R' Yochanon (who we Paskin like) that holds he's Mikayim the Mitzva is as follows. there are two aspects of a person, his soul and his body. through conversion his soul turns into a different soul, so all that are dependent on the soul is considered new. but the body is th same body. Since this body created children, so it was Parah V'Ravya.

Quote "While women do not have the overt obligation to procreate they have at least a tacit one through their husbands, right? "

I don't see why they should have any obligation at all.

Quote "Isn't everyone in the world, Jewish women and non-Jews obligated in the Mitzvah of Lashevet [to populate the world]?"

I never seen anything on non jews. On woman it's a Shaila in the Rishonim, though the Geder as an obligation. See Gitin 41b Tosfos D"H Lo Tohu that says that even if a woman has the Mitzva of Sheves but since she's not obliated in P'ru Ur'vu so she might not do Sheves. (It would seem from ther that its a Mitzva kiyumis and not Chiyuvis)

Rav Chaim,
You responded;

quote:

Does a geyr have the obligation to establish a Jewish family if he has already sired children as a goy? (This is about a Jewish family unit, not children per se).
The Rambam holds that the children also must convert to be Yoitze. the tosfos says it doesn't

So in keeping with the Rambam, the geyr has the obligation to procreate if his children do not convert?

Avi

Rav Chaim,

You responded;

quote:

Quote "If a man cannot spill seed, he has to emplace it in a womb. "

Or keep it in himself.

Biologically, a man will eventually spill seed involuntarily.

quote:

Quote ". As the geyr emerges from the mikveh, he is a new creation, childless and unrelated to his goy children. "

So, you hold like Reish Lukish Smile

Yes, I do.

Rav cahim,

You said;

quote:

I never seen anything on non jews. On woman it's a Shaila in the Rishonim, though the Geder as an obligation. See Gitin 41b Tosfos D"H Lo Tohu that says that even if a woman has the Mitzva of Sheves but since she's not obliated in P'ru Ur'vu so she might not do Sheves. (It would seem from ther that its a Mitzva kiyumis and not Chiyuvis)

I've heard it said that women do have the obligation to build a family, they just didn't need to be reminded because it comes to them naturally. Is that correct?

Avi,
You have to be careful on "Taamei Hakra." In other words, we do not take any reasons that we theorise what may be the reason why the Torah obligates or exempts to halacha L'Maaseh. Woman are completely exempt. I think what you may have heard the woman didn't need to be commanded, since they'll do it anyhow, but there is still no obligation whatsoever (except for Sheves to those that hold that woman are Chayiv.)

Rav Chaim,
Understood!
Do the children "belong" to the woman?
Avi

Quote "Do the children "belong" to the woman?"

I'm not sure of the question. Children are not property that they'll belong tot he parent. She is their mother and they are her children for all the Mitzvos that may apply.

What is a good definition of "Taamei Hakra"?


And on point, since we say that a Ger no longer is related to their birth family, how does it work for a Ger who is exempt from P'ru Urivu due to having sired children before gerus?

Do his gentile children through whom he is considered to have satisfied his mitzvah obligation retain any connection to the ger, and vice versa?

I wrote an explanation to this before

quote:

My explanation for R' Yochanon (who we Paskin like) that holds he's Mikayim the Mitzva is as follows. there are two aspects of a person, his soul and his body. through conversion his soul turns into a different soul, so all that are dependent on the soul is considered new. but the body is th same body. Since this body created children, so it was Parah V'Ravya.

The minchas Chinuch says, though they're not considered his children, but the were Miyuchis after him (their status is the same as the father.) I'm not sure what his Chiluk is, though the children take after him, yet he's not the same "him" as the children take over. Thus I'm left with my P'Shat