B"H

I have an important question to ask the Rabbis of the Global Yeshiva.

We learn in Mishnah Menachos 8:6 about the several kinds of wines that are valid for an oblation upon the altar, and which wines are to be disqualified.

The Mishnah (ibid.) says:

אין מביאין לא מתוק ולא מעושן ולא מבושל ואם הביא פסול

(Translation)
"They may not bring wine that had been sweetened or smoked or cooked, and if they did so it was invalid."

Rambam, in Hilchos Shabbos 29:14, takes this one step further. He writes that only those wines used on the altar are valid for saying over it the Kidush!

I know many Yemenites who will make their own wine, only to avoid coming across wine in the market that has been sweetened with sugar, or that has been pasteurized. But not all Yemenites will follow these strictures.

My question is, what are the arguments that permit one's making use of sweetened wine, or pasteurized wine? Or is this something that we ought to put a check to?

Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

R' David,

Have a look at Yechaveh Da'at Vol. 2 Siman 35. The bottom line seems to be that (for example) pasteurised wine is still wine (what else would you call it?) and therefore can be used for Kiddush etc.

I thought that one was to use sweetened wine for kiddush to sweeten the mitzva.

The Mechaber in OC 272 brings a Machlokes, with the first and main Shita permits it (The RAma also permits it, unless if all else is equal, if you have a choice of two wines, than take the non sweetened one.)

So I guess it all depends on how strong the Yeminite is to keep the Shita of the Rambam.

B"H

Thanks Rav Chaim, and Rebbe Yisroel, for showing me these sources! I needed to hear this.

I have mostly seen the response written by Rabbi Yoseph Qafih, of blessed memory, about this subject, (Rabbi Qafih's Commentary on Rambam's "Mishne Torah," Hilchos Berachos 8:2, footnote # 5, where he basically adheres to the opinion of Rambam. Rabbi Qafih goes on to show, by his understanding, how that sweetened wine is invalid for Kiddush, saying that where the Jerusalem Talmud (Pesachim, ch. 10) mentions how that a certain Rabbi used to drink "Yayin Konditon," or "sweetened wine" on the night of Passover (apparently because of his having suffered from headaches at drinking too much wine), he explains that this was only the cup of "cheirus," or "liberty," but not one of the original four cups that are required.

At the first available opportunity, when I go to my shul, I'll check the Questions and Responsa of Rav Ovadia Yoseph, "Yechaveh Daas." I'm sure this will help me understand the matter better.

Sincerely,
David

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
The Mechaber in OC 272 brings a Machlokes, with the first and main Shita permits it (The RAma also permits it, unless if all else is equal, if you have a choice of two wines, than take the non sweetened one.)

So I guess it all depends on how strong the Yeminite is to keep the Shita of the Rambam.

In his Teshuva Rav Ovadiah points out a difficulty with the ruling of the Mechaber, because the Rif also held like the Rambam. As a general rule the Mechaber [Rav Yosef Karo] follows the majority of the 3 "Amudei Ho'ra'ah" [pillars of teaching], the Rambam, the Rif and the Rosh. So in this case he should have ruled like the Rambam and the Rif that such wine is invalid for Kiddush.

One answer given is that the Rif's ruling was given in a set of Teshuvos that possibly the Mechaber never saw.

B"H

The source for this teaching, i.e. not using cooked wine or sweetened wine (possibly referring to wines that have a mixture of honey added to it) is from the Talmud, Baba Basra 97a.

I have just come to learn that the great Yemenite teacher and scholar, Rabbi Yehia Saleh (Maharitz), b. 1713 C.E. – d. 1805 C.E., ruled that it was permitted to make the blessing, "Borei P'ree Hagefen," over a wine concoction made by soaking raisins in water and putting it to the fire, or what we might say, "grape-juice that had been pasteurized." This would mean that he did not rule in accordance with the stringent ruling found in Rambam's "Mishne Torah," who required such wines to be given the blessing, "She'hakol Nehiyeh Bidevaro."

Likewise, another scholar of that period, Rabbi David Mishreqi, who wrote a commentary known as "Shtilei Zetim" on the Shulchan Arukh and on Rama (Rabbi Moshe Iserlisch), made it a principle of his that whenever the custom in Yemen was not in accordance with the Rama, he would excise the Rama from his own Commentary. But, here, where the Rama had written in Shulchan Arukh section # 272:8 that such wines are permitted (even though they had been cooked or sweetened), Rabbi David Mishreqi did not excise this ruling from his own Commentary. This would mean that the people in Yemen generally had it as their practice, too, and would make use of cooked wines in the Kiddush!

Sincerely,
David

Well I can very well argue with the Rambam. However the Sifre says
חי אתה מנסך ואי אתה מנסך מזוג
פינחס סעיף לג
Now in the Talmud all wine for kidush was mazug. If you make wine from nature grapes like in the old days, the resulting wine is too sweet to drink.