Something has always bothered me about the section just before 'Oz Yashir', where it is written, "Vaya'aminu BeHaShem uveMoshe avdo" translated as "And they believed in HaShem and Moses His servant."



Why suddenly here does it mention that Bnei Yisrael believed in HaShem? Surely they believed in Him long before during the 10 plagues?



First of all, I believe the English translation is wrong. It should be, "And they had faith in HaShem and Moses His servant." (From the root of Emunah=faith).

This would then answer my question, as well as some of the other niggling questions I have. It shows the difference between knowledge, belief and faith.

Knowledge has to come from something tangible. It cannot come from just experience, it must be tangible in some way. The Torah uses the word "Vayeidah" (And he knew) when referring to a sexual relationship i.e. a physical, tangible event. G-d's presence, however, is not tangible, therefore the Bnei Yisrael couldn't have had knowledge of G-d.

Belief does not depend on tangibility. One can believe in something without experiencing it. G-d's presence during the 10 plagues was so evident to Israelites and Egyptians alike that they all believed He existed. In fact, even before that point there was a belief in G-d's existenc. Why, then, does it wait until the crossing of the Yam Suf before making a statement regarding Am Yisrael and Emunah?

Because faith is the most weak of the three. Belief in G-d is not enough. It is whether one has faith in what one believes in that counts. This is why, despite witnessing the 10 plagues, both the Egyptians and Israelites did not have full faith in G-d. Perhaps they questioned/reasoned that what G-d had done until then was the end and no more would follow, or that G-d's power was limited to what He had already done? It is this that could have allowed Pharoah's heart to harden, or the Israelites to complain at the edge of the Yam Suf. It was only after the Yam Suf that the Israelites as a nation had full faith in G-d, after the total destruction of the Egyptians, and therefore this faith is recorded then.

An interesting further point. Attaining full faith is not a lasting event. Therefore, even after attaining that highest of levels, the Israelites were able to complain/sin later (about water, meat, golden calf etc) because full faith needs to be renewed, otherwise the level falls. Perhaps all the trials of our forefathers were a test of faith - certainly they weren't tested about their belief. This is why we must pray three times daily - to renew out faith in G-d - not our belief.

May we be zocheh to renew our faith soon to the point that Mashiach will be a realization and not a just point of belief or faith.

Michael;
Actually we do not have a good equivalent for "emunah" in the English language. The best rendering is something like "faithfulness". Emunah means adhering to something you already know. The meaning of faith as generally accepted is more of a Christaian meaning where one hopes for things unknown. That's almost the opposite of the Hebrew meaning. The Hebrew is reaching out to something your soul already knows. That's why I think "faithfulness" comes closer because it is faithfulness to something one already knows.

quote:

Knowledge has to come from something tangible. It cannot come from just experience, it must be tangible in some way.

Knowledge is experiental and the connection between the intangible and the tangible. Consequently, knowledge is somewhat of a transition dynamic, and a meeting place of opposites.

emunah is integral to who/what we are, it really cannot be dissected down to any single attribute as it includes them all in a seamless manner intimately interincluded with G-d

quote:

One can believe in something without experiencing it.

I am inclined to think that to "believe" in something one has not experienced is akin to idolatry. Which is not saying that all legitimate experience is recognized by the mind. Our minds are extremely limited in the ability to hold and process the totality of the "experience" of our soul, even more limited to cognate the "experience" of our divine spark. It is a challenge for the mind to "draw down" the experience of our soul and divine spark into it. Nevertheless, we are to required to do this as we are able and in its "time".

Just my 2 cents.

quote:

Knowledge has to come from something tangible. It cannot come from just experience, it must be tangible in some way.

Look please carefully at the specific words in the Akeida.

Hashem surely knows all things, yet only after Avraham raised up Yitzchak as an offering with a willingness and a craving to perform Hashem's will before his own interests... only then does Hashem say "Now I know".

Also look please to the phrase "Hashem Yireh", translated as Hashem is seen.

I learned these passukim in detail with a rabbi some years ago and we found that the words have an evidentiary or proof overtone.

I would like to say that these events provided Hashem with the tangible proof to show to the Satan who had asked why such favoritism to Avraham... now Hashem had the proof of why Avraham and the Jewish people are deserving of such a high place.

Now it is shown! Now it is seen! Avraham Avraham lived up to his full potential, to quote my rabbi from a different discussion.


Thus I think you are absolutely right to be discussing the various gradations of knowing something.

Avraham's (and Yitzchak's) performance at the Akeida gave an actual tangible proof of that which Hashem knew all along -- suitable for proving to chas v'shalom one such as the Satan for whom Hashem's Word is not sufficient proof.

By Hashem's Word the whole universe was created, but for something like recognizing the special nature of the Jewish people, even Hashem needs tangible proof ;-(

But Boruch Hashem, Hashem created a world in which we have Jewish people who are actually capable of fulfilling our potential!

quote:

Attaining full faith is not a lasting event.

Yes, it most certainly is. The only that "changes" is the ability of the mind to hold it/understand it. Emunah is an ever-present reality that never changes. It is immutable. The problem is in the mind's ability to percieve its presence.

Every Jewish soul has a "knowledge" that is not experience based. It's a knowledge planted in our soul by the Kadosh Baruch Hu. We draw from it and as we draw from it, it's called emunah. How do you know that "YOU ARE", can you prove it? This Jewish consciousness was implanted in our souls by the Kadosh Baruch Hu....we just "know" it. This is quite a different understanding from the Christianized type of faith you will find in dictionaries.

Perhaps you and I are using the terms "experiential" and "knowledge" in different ways. I am referring to a knowledge that is an "experience" of the soul, and not an experience of the mind necessarily. The mind may be quite unaware of the experiential knowledge that I am referring to. The experiential knowledge I am referring to is very close to "emunah" and is really just an expression of emunah essentially.

and when I say "experiential", I mean in it terms of "being-becoming", sort of - implanted in our soul is a good analogy

quote:

Originally posted by lori:
I am inclined to think that to "believe" in something one has not experienced is akin to idolatry.

Sorry if I have misunderstood here, but I have never experienced G-d. According to you, does that mean that belief in G-d is idolatrous??

quote:

Originally posted by lori:

quote:

Attaining full faith is not a lasting event.

Yes, it most certainly is. The only that "changes" is the ability of the mind to hold it/understand it. Emunah is an ever-present reality that never changes. It is immutable. The problem is in the mind's ability to percieve its presence.

Perhaps we are making the same point here. The struggle for someone to reach perfect faith remains a lifetime struggle, even if they do attain that faith.

What I am saying is that Bnei Yisrael attained that level, perhaps for the first and only time as a nation, after Kriat Yam Suf. It seems that they lost that level almost immediately because they began to complain against G-d.

Similarly with us today. We have to follow rituals like praying three times a day, not just as ritual attachment to the past, but to help us reach higher heights of faith.

quote:

The struggle for someone to reach perfect faith remains a lifetime struggle

I agree. You are right. We are trying to say the same thing. Words sometimes get in the way.

My 2 Agorot (we don't use cents here in Ha-eretz)

I once had lunch with a Rabbi who gave a beautiful D'var. I hope I can paraphrase and do some kind of justice. We find that after Yisrael came through the Yam Suf that they gained "Emuna" and broke out into song. How did they ever lose such faith so quickly? His answere is that this is the nature of faith. It comes with a mind-boggling, super natural event and leaves just as quickly. What is Ha-kadosh Baruch-hu's response when we so quickly lost our faith? "In the morning you will eat bread...etc." He promises to feed us every day with man and then "you will know (da'at) that I am H' your G-d." So he says that, H' doesn't just give us the mind-boggling, super-natural events but he feeds us everyday. That's what raises us from the level of "emuna" to "da-at (knowledge)." That's the importance of daily Prayers and Brachot! Shavoa tov l'kulam.

Quote "G-d's presence, however, is not tangible, therefore the Bnei Yisrael couldn't have 'known' G-d."

It does say " Zeh Kali" which connotes that they saw the Shechina. "A maid saw at the sea what the prophet Yechezkal b. Buzi (in his seeing the Markava) didn’t see. Since it’s impossible to actual see Hashem, we must put it in the middle stage. But by the Maakos they hadn’t met the Shechina, so only after that point they could say the term as "believe."

How do we make sense of the above when bringing a few other passages into the mix, namely:
Devorim 4:29 "and you shall KNOW today, and take it to heart, that "Hashem Hoo Haelokim" inthe sky above, and the earth below, there is none else."
and the frist law in the rambams MT "Foudation of foundation to KNOW there is a first cause (ie. Hashem) etc etc."

This "knowing" is fundamental knowledge already implanted within our souls to discover, so no one can say he doesn't have the intellectual capacity to know. We already have it within us to know. Through emunah we can draw it out and then "KNOW" it.

quote:

Originally posted by lori:

quote:

One can believe in something without experiencing it.

I am inclined to think that to "believe" in something one has not experienced is akin to idolatry.

Friends, Loriah, &c.

The people of Israel while camped at Mount Sinai made the ultimate expression of FAITH when they said "Kol Asher Diber Hashem Na'aseh ve-Nishma'." Here, they said "We shall do," before saying "We shall hear," which everyone knows requires a level of faith to say such a thing! For in most situations, most people would require hearing a matter before their committing themselves to that very thing. In our case, Israel had not yet heard the injunctions about to be given to them from G-d, but had already taken the first step out of
Faith and had committed themselves to those laws, no matter what they would be! They were commended for this, as we have seen in the latter commentaries, so in this case, belief in something one has not experienced cannot always be tantamount to idolatry. I will not doubt, however, that there are people out there who believe in dieties that do not exist. But this is a different subject altogether.
Sincerely,
David

David;

We missed you in the chat. bu tI know it was weird hour for you. We are trying to get a better time to include as many as possible.

Anyway, about Klal Yisrael; we had a basis for saying "Kol Asher Diber Hashem Na'aseh ve-Nishma'." We weren't just saying that in the dark. We had heard other nations had rejected it but we also knew it was the Kadosh Baruch Hu. This was HaShem and we figured it had to be a good deal. And on that basis of "knowledge" we could say what we said.

B"H
Moshe,
I prefer looking at it this way. When Israel said to HaShem, "Kol Asher Diber HaShem Na'aseh Ve-Nishma'," (All that G-d says, we shall do and hear), it was analogous to our wanting to get to a certain place, but not knowing the direction how to get there. However, when we see road signs and mileage posts directing us in which direction to take, and how far we must go, we become relieved thereby - for we put simple faith in those road signs! It's the same with G-d's holy Torah. Though we might not yet fully understand its implications, we rest assured that it will help us overcome all obstacles along the way in our short lives upon earth.
Sincerely,
David