(David)

quote:

The people of Israel while camped at Mount Sinai made the ultimate expression of FAITH when they said "Kol Asher Diber Hashem Na'aseh ve-Nishma'." Here, they said "We shall do," before saying "We shall hear," which everyone knows requires a level of faith to say such a thing!

Yes, true. But this is different than baseless "believing". Faith (emunah) is a kind of "belief" that is not baseless - i.e., based upon something we had no "experience" (in terms of essential connection) of. Baseless belief has no foundation of connection in the soul, while emunah does - even though both types (baseless and founded) of "believing" may lack intellectual understanding initially.

quote:

In most situations most people would require hearing a matter before committing to it

And that is the proper response, in most situations.

quote:

In our case, Israel had not yet heard the injunctions ... but had already taken the first step out of faith

I would interpret this as evidence that, despite the lack of understanding, there was nevertheless recognition of and connection to truth - that takes us out of the domain of baseless faith and into the domain of founded faith. Moreover, this recognition is a a function of the all-inclusive soul power - temimut. Importantly, this evidences that the mitzvot were already a part of us - before we even were aware of it. So, even as we were intellectually unaware, there was some level of recognition that we latched onto.


(Moshe)

quote:

We knew it was Hashem, so we could say what we said

Exactly.

B"H
Loriah abd Moshe,
I would have to agree with you that "faith" carries with it an element of fore-knowledge.In this regard, it is on a higher plane than mere "belief."
With Israel, they had already seen the ten plagues upon Egypt, and they had seen the parting of the waters of the Red Sea. (By the way, Rav Saadia Gaon says that the place where Israel crossed the waters was actually "the Gulf of Suez," known in Arabic as "Bahar al-Qulzum," and which the ancients of our nation knew as the "Reed Sea.")Israel had an inkling of the powers of G-d, and that G-d took care for their preservation.
Like in my previous post, so do I say now. "All that G-d says, we shall do and hear," is analogous to a man who was lost, but when he eventually came to a place where he saw road signs instructing him how to get to his desired haven, he put his faith in those signs. (And this, mind you, based upon some prior knowledge about road signs in general that they usually are not misleading.) In conclusion, faith indeed carries with it an element of fore-knowledge.
David

Quote "Anyway, about Klal Yisrael; we had a basis for saying "Kol Asher Diber Hashem Na'aseh ve-Nishma'." We weren't just saying that in the dark. We had heard other nations had rejected it but we also knew it was the Kadosh Baruch Hu. This was HaShem and we figured it had to be a good deal. And on that basis of "knowledge" we could say what we said."

Your second point seems to be the right way, as it seems to apply in Shabbos 88a-b with the story of Rava and the Tziduki. The Tziduki admonished Rava for accepting the Torah before he heard it, first you should see if you could keep it. Rava answered that they went with our T’mimos (see Rashi on the top of second Amud, that we trusted Hashem that he wouldn’t give us anything that we couldn’t keep.)

I go back to The Garden to understand faith vs. Truth. Truth is listening to the snake: "You are one with God or The All." Faith is listening to Hashem: "God is God, and you are not." The Truth(AMT) is true but cold(or burning) whereas faith(AMN)is false but keeps me warm. AMT(truth) describes the begining, middle, and end, AMN(faith) describes the begining, middle, and next after the middle... I had a vision where I was coming in from outsite the Solar System toward the Sun(AMT). As I passed near Earth(AMN) I saw Jews sitting around a table studying Tora. I decided to go to the Sun, and merged with it. Why not? It's the source of the Earth. The Earth revolves around It! This was 10 yrs ago, when I was a Jew for Nothing. Now, through a long education process I learned that, like the word AMN, "Earth" may not be The Truth, but it keeps me warm, instead of frying me.

Leonard,
Is your post about a dream you had?

No, it definitely was a vision. I only had one in my life(I'm 43 now). I place Kabbalah in with "the Sun" and "The Snake."

Leonard, a vision? Huh? What is this supposed to mean?

Non religious I assure you. It just felt real and it was VERY easy to interpret. This is what I mean by vision. All my other dreams and hypnogogic/hypnopopic experiences have been notoriously non compliant as far as interpretation is concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacob Lessard:
My 2 Agorot (we don't use cents here in Ha-eretz)

Which is worth more?

Leonard,
Are you part of a kehilla and did you tell your rav about your vision?

True emunah does not feel the need to humilate people to discern truth. True emunah builds people up instead of looking for the nearest garbage can to throw people into.

No, I am not part of a kehilla. I don't have a rav.

You need a good rav who understands kabbala to works with you. I'm sure in LA there are a few. Your visions may be of significance to you and all fo Klal Yisrael. You don't want to miss such an opportunity out of a lack of good Torah guidance. I urge you to find one.

Last I checked, a cent was worth about 4.5 agurot. But I have been told that with Moshiach's imminent arrival this will most certainly be flipped around.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacob Lessard:
Last I checked, a cent was worth about 4.5 agurot. But I have been told that with Moshiach's imminent arrival this will most certainly be flipped around.

Then one should stick with "2 cents" and not with any other denomination. Though I've heard, that "Common Sense is Not Commonly Found", therefore whichever cents or sense you have, hold onto it with all your might.