I would like to bring up a point which is not very much commented on; the fact that Moses was married to a gentile. Is there any symbolism here that I am not getting?
I am also married to a gentile and as I follow my path back to judaism am finding that this fact contends big time against me.
There are many illustrations in the Scriptures of gentile women who were instrumental for the Biblical Characters: immediately I can remember King David's grandmother (I think it's his grandmother, but I am sure that he descends from a gentile woman), the harlot who helps the jewish spies etc..
I would like to know why all the fuss? Is it not possible to live a jewish life (not an Orthodox one of course) with a gentile woman?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

The wife of Moses was a convert, so was David's greatgrandmother and the harlet. In matter of fact, alot of laws of conversion is learnt from how Ruth (David's greatgrandmother) was converted. The same is true to all people who married in the Bible to non-jews (Samson, Solomon etc. all married after conversion.
The question about living a "jewish" life being married to a non-jew though a non-orthodox one has a very wide implication. How about living a "jewish" life while eating pork? or worshipping idols?
Before going further, I would like to make a differance between someone who is jewish and someone who follows the jewish religon. Anybody who was born of a jewish mother is part of the jewish nation, even if he practices Christianity, like the cardinal of Paris, is still jewish. Independent of who is a jew there is the jewish religon. A jew has the ability to chose wether he'll follow the religon or not.
In Orthodox judaiam, the laws are unchangeable, therefore other "branches of Judaism" realy have to be classified as a different religon, though they are based on Orthodox Judaism, since they change the laws, it's heretical. I'm sorry that this is not so PC, but these are the facts and I can't change them.
So, no matter what one does, he'll always be part of the nation of jews, but being part of the jewish religon does. If some poeple do what they want and call it "Judaism" is it realy Judaism? (what's in a name anyhow?)
I am very impressed with your courage to deal with your problem, but I have no experiance dealing with it to find a way to deal with the problem. I can suggest you get in touch with some outreach orginazation that deal with these problems often and may be offer a salution. May Hashem help you in your endeaver.

Dear Rav Chaim,
Don't get me wrong I am deeply impressed by all Orthodox Jews, unfortunately I only woke up to the fact that I was in the wrong path recently. And believe me Judaism burns strong in me.
I know you will probably not agree with what I am about to say, but here it goes: I think Judaism has to re-think itself, by this I don't mean forget our traditions and our heritage and do something other than Judaism, but we do in fact live in a world which is very different to the one our parents were born into, and even more so in relation to the world in which the Talmud was written.
I think both of us will agree to the fact that HaShem wants his lost children to come back to him, but what are we doing about that. The attitude from many quarters is, you did the wrong thing that's your problem not mine. I believe this is wrong. In this age of uncertainty for us Jews, we should unite and accept each other in order to strengthen ourselves, and never point fingers at each other.

We believe that the Torah was given to us by G-d.What G-d commands us is timeless,and cannot be changed by the events and circumstances of history.Whatever G-d commanded us at Har Sinai is as relevant today as it was back then.

I believe in this: The Torah is absolute because it is Divine, now the commentaries and interpretaions are relative because they are human...

Richard, a friend if mine (coincidentally a grandson of a late big rabbi in Glasgow) recommends that you should try finding someone who could help you on Aish.Com. it's abig out reach org. that has many years of experiance of dealing with these cases. I'm sure they'll be able to find a solution that you could live with. Please keep us posted fo your progresses.

That is where we differ. The Orthodox and the bulk of Jewry for the last 3000 years believe that the Torah and its interpertations were given to us by G-d on Har Sinai.

Richard, I can't blame you for your belief. This was the way you where brought up. If I was brought up the same way, I would probably have the same belief and probably wouldn't be so interested in Judaism as you are. What you are saying are the propaganda of the non orthodox and Christian theologins.
I would like to have a chance to proove to you our position, I hope you can have an open mind. I'm going to have to write this in leanth so I can be very clear and probably take a few posts
1) Firstly, I would like to point out that the scholarship of the orthodox in torah is not only better then the non orthodox, but in a totaly different league. Remember in the forum "Is there a cure for foolishness", you complained that the conversation was getting to scholarly. Honestly, it was only very modestly scholarly, something which the overwhelming average orthodox would be able to follow with ease. I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm just trying to give you some appreciation for orthodox scholarship.
If you would ask your friends who were the 12 tribes, how many would be able to answear correctly? The average orthodox child knows it when he's 5. When he is 6 he starts learning torah for around 5 hours a day and keeps expanding as he grows older. When he's in HS he learns about 7 hours a day the finer points of how to analyze a piece of talmud. Then post HS most stay on to learn a full day for a few years even after they get married. The scholars stay on to learn for another decade or 2 (or longer). Since learning is our circles regarded in high esteem, it attracts the best and the brightest. There are alot of geniuses that know the whole talmud and commentaries, some even verbatim.Compare that to the average non orthodox that know very little torah, if any. Even the rabbis don't learn too much. (It's like the old joke :what do you need to know before you teach a dog? more than the dog. The same is true here, all they need to know is more than their congregation, which is not much). They are realy no more then a social worker.
My point is, I think it's clear that the orthodox are more equipted in scholarship in order to understand the torah. Their statements should be the first place to look if someone is truely looking for the truth in torah. We happen to be the biggest experts by far. Definetly they should,at least, given proper examination and not be taken lightly
2) secondly, I would like to point out the foolishness of the notion that we can all interpret the torah any which way we feel. If it is true that the torah has all interpretations, then it really has no interpretation. Anybody could interpret the way they want, then there is no evil, since any act could be interpreted in the Torah, hence the torah is meaningless.
For example, in the prohabition of men having relations with each other, there are alot of modern theologins that claim, to fit into the PC of the time, it's only for someone who already has a wife and only does this for extra pleasures. If this is his only "spouse" tehn it's permitted. After all, this is their interpretation.
With the same logic, a mobster can say, the prohibition of killing was only said on someone who didn't doublecross you, but if he doublecrosses you, then it's a mitzvah to kill him.
3) Thirdly, and I'll conclude this post with this , the verse (Deut. 12:21) "Thou shall slaughter your cattle..... like the way I commanded you." There is no place in all 5 Books of Moses that explains any commandments how to slaughter (all the laws of slaughtering are all from the oral law) thus is a proof that the written torah must be accompanied with an oral tradition
There is alot more to write, but I would like you to think of these first points for starters and reply back what you think of it. (thanks for posting this question, it is realy making the yeshiva lively

Rav Chaim,
Not only do I have a great respect for Orthodoxy as I have a great admiration for it. As you said unfortunately I was not born into it, although my great grand father was Orthodox, which gives us different experiences of life but does not make us part of a different extended family, I hope.
I just think that the majority of the Jews are in my situation (which does not mean to say it is the right one) and what I was talking about is that the very strict rules of Orthodoxy end up being like a veil for Jews like myself, and gentiles, to discover the wonders and beauty of our tradition. As well as it's evident superiority as a life-style option oven the several ones available in our times. You have got to admit that there is a need to bring both sides together and accomplish our mission, I mean Tikkun here.
In other words there is a risk that the main point may get lost in the midst of all these rules and knowledge.
In all cases I feel like I am doing the Manish Tanah here, which feels good..
I also thank you a lot for the web address and will look into it.

About the interpretations and the scriptures bieng given in Har Sinai, why would Moses send the spies, strike the rock etc... after the recieving of the Torah if he already knew what was going to happen?????

Richard, of course you are part of our extended family, I just want to help you become an immediate family member
I, having the traditional jewish heart, would like to agree with you, but I can't. One of the things that is very stressed in orthodox judaism is truth in judaism. I understand that a great part of jews had strayed from orthodoxy, mostly for the lack of education for immigrant children at the turn of the last century. There were almost no jewish school, so they didn't receive any appreciation for judaism, so they left it. It's very unfortunate, but I cannot say it's OK. I don't even have the authority to OK it. This is the reason why so many people in the orthodox community have dedicated their lives to outreach to the larger jewish community. They love them, and feel sorry that they don't know how to live as proper jews, so they go out and teach them and give them the education that is missing.
I also think is being misrepresented in your circles is the "strict rules of orthodoxy". It kind of have a ring that we people don't have any "life", without any pleasures. We live very normal lives and are very down to earth people. The "strict" rules are not that difficult to keep, and once you're used to it, it becomes second nature. Besides the benifits in the "next world", there is alot of benifits in this world for living such a life. The beauty of it can not be justified on these pages, it must be expierienced.
The reason the torah gives so many laws, it wants us to have G-d and the torah as the main part of our lives. What happened to all the "jews at heart" who express there judaism twice a year? They , or their kids, became totaly assimilated and there is no remainder of their jewish hearts.
In Kabbalah, there is a concept of spirituality reality. Just like there is physical reality, if you hit your hand with a hammer, the reality is it is going to hurt, no matter how nice of a person he is. The same is true with spirituality. If someone sins, the reality is that you are damaging your soul, and there is no 2 ways about it.
I hope you relize, that none of this is personal, and I only have your best interest in mind. Religon is a touchy subject, so sometimes it's hard to put things in a way that might sound offensive. For this I apologize.
As for "the veil between people", that's why it's always pays to start slow. This is why I refer you to the outreach pros. They deal with these cases every day, and they know at what pace is best for people, It's hardly the best thing to jump into it all at once and every step of the way you gain immensely. On the other hand, one shouldn't think where he is is the ideal, but a stepping stone to grow.
hope to hear from you soon and I hope I answeared your . I hope you get a to your .

Rav,
I truthfully envy (in a good way if this is possible) your way of life and if possible I would like to attain something even close to it in my life time.
I am now in a situation where I am like a new comer to Judaism, so I can look at things with a fresh eye, and in some circles what I am is sadly badly recieved, and therefore I appreciate your words. And I still believe that more could be done to reunite our people.
I hopefully have done teshuva for a long string of sins which I foolishly committed and believe I am in the right path now. I am quite committed to judaism, go to shul much more than twice a year and study on a regular basis.
About my marital situation, I believe HaShem will end up sorting it out in one way or another the same way he has been sorting out oher aspects of my life since I repented.
As a father and as a student of Torah I do not want to give up my family, and pray that gradually my wife will pick up interest on being Jewish, I can't force it on her. My daughter is really interested in Torah, which makes me quite proud.
Anyway, I excuse myself on going so personnal here. Also I have already taken enough offences in my life to differenciate when someone is speaking as friend or family and when someone who means me harm.
I wish you a good Shabbat.

Thank you for not taking what I said personaly, and I'm sure Hashem will help you out. I made another posting to answear your question about if the torah was given at Sinai why didn't Moses know the future, but my computer crashed it before I had a chance to post it , so I had to wait to post it
The answear is that all though the laws were given at Sinai,the stories where compiled later, as they happened, Rabbi Mitterhoff wrote a whole in depth post on the subject in another forum "yet another begginer's question" of the different opinions how they were compiled.

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Originally posted by Richard Klein:
I would like to bring up a point which is not very much commented on; the fact that Moses was married to a gentile.

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Shalom Richard,

Things are not quite as simple as they seem. You have received the obvious answers, but even on the level of 'Pshat' (Simplest meaning of the text often interpetted as "Contextual Analysis") things are not so straight forward.

Were the Jewish People "Jewish" before they accepted Torah? I mean did they put mezzuzot on their doors or write divorce documents before they were commanded to? So Moshe's reslationship with Tziporah can also be explained in a way that does not require any convoluted unwritten explanations. Everyone who accepted the Torah became a Jew! It wasn't a racial code, but ultimately an inclusive code for all who wish to embrace it!

quote:

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I can remember King David's grandmother (I think it's his grandmother, but I am sure that he descends from a gentile woman)

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From this righteous woman we learn in the scripture the essence of conversion. What Ruth said and did became the sine qua non for every convert who came after her.

quote:

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...the harlot who helps the jewish spies etc..

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Here I have to "reach" a little, but you can see from Rachav's statements to the spies that she had already accepted the reality of the G-d of Israel and the inevitability of the Jewish People's return to the Land of Israel. To say that she was already on her way (intellectiually) towards convertion is not too much of a assertion.

Now when the Torah directly forbids a Jew from marrying a non-Jews you have to ask: How could Jews like Boaz who married Ruth or Kalev who married Rachav do so if they were non-Jewish? It is an explicit commandment in the written tradition: "neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son" Deuteronomy 7:3

So the conclusion is - sorry. It would be nice to solve a lot of problems (in Israel hundreds of thousands of Russian Jews came with their non-Jewish spouses!), but if we want Judaism to remain Judaism and not become Protestanism or something else, we can only follow the tradition that has made us what we are! The source of morality and ethics to every religion and nation in the Western World - even when they repudiate us, they affirm this.

I wish you well.

Yoel

my friend Richard you raise very wonderful question. what is more wonderful is you new desire for Judaism. as far as what are Orthodox jews doing about it. i would like to think we are doing alot. if i can name one orthodox movement and one well least just say maybe his life wasn't completely orthodox but the people who followed his teaching for the most part became very orthodox.

One was the Last Rebbe of Chabad who talk with alot of jews it didn't matter if you were Chabad nevermind orthodox or just secular he would spend time with each person who saw him and he would just talk with you. almost like he was an old time friend of yours and never push you into anything completely you didn't want to do. the other was Shlomo Carlebauch who brought back many jews into the fold if you will. in fact in almost every shul you can hear his meldoies. There are thousands upon thousand of stories of how he would go out and just talk to people from new age gathering to wood stock. and though these holy men move on. their followers which are among hundrends countine their teachings and traiditions. some do it very openly and are clear, and there are others who work and teach about judaism from living it.

as i said it is wonderful you have the desire for judaism. mix marriage is a hard thing to deal with. even more so when it come do your children. which is the saddness of all this.<sigh> for i know of countless rabbis and rebbe who had to say to somone who had a desire to return to judaism who's partents weren't religious but they love judaism. only to find out they were not really jewish. either because the mother converted to reform. or the mother isn't jewish at all. thus the child is place in what turns out to be a very embaring thing. <sigh> in fact one such event was spoken of in Lilth the zine, i can't remember what edition.

thus you see, Judaism with all it's laws it stress as the most important thing family value and unity. Moshe wife was not born jewish but we know through her action she was a rightous convert, for it was her and not moshe who circusim their child. though this issue is a matter between you and your wife for the question will come up if not by one of you then by your child.

which is alot so don't think about it over shabbos just enjoy yourself over shabbos.. good shabbos..

Dear Gentlemen,
Mixed marriages are indeed a problem, specially for who wants to return to Judaism and finds barriers because of them.
However I have just come back from a journey where I spent the high holidays in my hometown, Rio de Janeiro, and to my surprise many of my Jewish friends, who I grew up with had done the same as me, (I was more radical than them; I spent 28 years away from Judaism probably because I was sexually harassed by my Bar-Mitvah teacher and my parents refused to believe me) and continue following the Jewish Religion, taking their families to Yom Kippur and raising their children as Jews.
There is the Gevurah side to judge inter-marriages that strictly forbids it, but there is a Chesed side, which I find more conforting, that sees it as a reversible slide and a test for who has done it and fights to return to his internal purity giving love to his fellow Jews as well as his wife and daughter. It is written in the Psalms that HaShem is not interested in offerings (the strict followings of the Halakah) but in a contrite and sincere heart.
It's easy to follow the Halakah and perform all the mitzvahs when you are brought up in a Religious environment isolated from the rest of the world, it is much harder to feel Jewish and to sincerely seek HaShem when you have to make your way through the impediments of the barriers of the secular world with all it's traps. Needless to say that the cold reception one gets from many people when one is trying to return makes things just a bit harder.
I would like to remind you guys that the second temple was destructed because of the inter fighting and bad politics between the Jews themselves, fundamentalism as we see with our Muslim brothers leads to hatred.

Shalom Richard it is wonderful to see you again...

Following Halakah and all it's percept's in an non-religious environment is without question a hard thing nevermind not being raised in a traditional household. for there is much to catch up on, without the need of a cold hand.

What makes the hardest part of it all is that your whole life is changing. and not just one or two things.. although richard it does become easier, and as the rabbis see you are being serious you will see more of the side of Chesed from them.

my friend your not alone in how you feel. and at one time or another i think all Baal Tshuvah (maters of returning) felt that way. since they acknowldge the fact that the temple was destoried because of greed (cares for themselves). rather then going up in the walk for G-d.

gut shabbos richard

Richard,
Your job, which it seems you are picking up on, is to find out what G-d wants from you. Look at the book of Ezra. That is all I will say for now..
Except that you should be well, and recieve many blessings from G-d!