In Rosh Hashanah 10b-11a There is an argument between R'Eliezer that holds the world was created in Tishrai and R" Yehoshuah that it was created in Nisson.

How could there be an argument on the time when it was created if time didn't start yet? This is easily answered by saying they're arguing when time started, did Hashem start time in Tishrai or Nisson?

The Tosfos in 27a points out that this we say on Rosh Hashanah that it's the beginning of the world, the Gemarah says it's like R.E.(R'Eliezer), and we also say it, it would seem we Paskin like R.E., But yet we paskin, in terms of counting the seasons, that it started in Nisson, like R.Y.. So Tosfos answers that they're both true (Ailu V'Ailu Divrei Elokim Chaim) that first Hashem thought to have the world created in Tishrai then he changed his mind and created it in Nisson.

what's the difference to Hashem to create the world in Tishrai or Nisson and what was his original reason to create in Tishrai and why did he change his mind

The I think is : Tishrai represents Hashem's attribute of judgement (middas Hadin) since we see we have Rosh Hashana then , the day of judgement, also, as the seasons go, it's the turn to the winter, which is smaller days and harsher weather. Nisson represent's Hashem's atribute of mercy (midas Harachamim), the redemptions happened then and seasonswise the weather is getting better and the days are getting longer.

Rashi in the Parsha says that Hashem wanted to rule thee rule with judgement, when he saw that it won't be able to exist under such harsh judgement, he changed it to mercy.So he wanted to create the world in Tishrai, which is the atribute of judgement, but optioned to create it in Tishrai, which is the atribute of mercy.

This begs another if running the world with mercy is good enough, and we know Hashem is meerciful, why did he want to run the world in pure judgement

The is that the Medrish says (brought down in the introduction to the Shmattsa) that the reason the world was created so Hashem could do good to his creations. This which he didn't send us to enjoy the rewards of heaven right away was because we wouldn't enjoy it as well if we didn't deserve it, we would feel like "Shnorers". So Hashem put us in this world so we can earn our way so we can enjoy the next world in the greatest way

So Hashem wanted to create the world with judgement, so that those who will do the Mitzvos so well will enjoy the next world to the fullest because they really deserve it. But since it wasn't able to happen, so at least it is runned with mercy, so even though they can't enjoy the next world to the fullest, since they really didn't deserve it, but since they recieved it by getting a good grade with the curve, they can enjoy it somewhat, since they somewhat deserved it.

This is why Hashem Judges the rightious to a "hair breadth" i.e. they have to be perfect. Since they can hack pure judgement, Hashem puts them on pure judgement, not for them to get a bigger share of the next world, but to enjoy their share that much more.

That's an interesting question, in which part of the year the world was created? Wow! I am glad I joined this forum! Please tell me off if I become too annoying...

I don't think my opinion matters ("Katonti...") but I think I agree with R'Eliezer. The days get shorter in the autmun and winter; the global clock started off ticking with the "And there was light", but since then, the clock has been going faster, and what used to be Six Days became what astronomers count to be 15 billion today's years.

But I don't think it is right to say that Hashem wanted first to rule the world by Judgment, but then changed His mind; In order to create the world, the Ohr-Ein-Sof had to contract into a point of darkness, which is on the side of Gevurah, in a process called Tzimtzum. That's why Creation was done in Tishrei, on the side of Gevurah. But it was not the Creation of the material world yet. As soon as the Vessel on the Gevurah side was created, Light flowed into it (the first quantum of time commenced by establishing causational relationship of these two events), fertilizing the Vessel, impregnating it, forcing it to give birth to new life; hense Nissan - spring, on the side of Khesed. Light was penetrating the Vessel, enlightening it, until it could stand it no longer, and Tishrei started again with the destruction of the Vessel. This was the end of the first heavenly year.

I don't think Hashem changed His mind. It *was* His idea to create the world this way.

Wasn't it Nachmanides who wrote something to the effect that Creation was an iterative process? That is symbolized by the two calendars, one flowing from Gevurah and the other from Khessed. BTW, the flow of time is in a spiral; thus, the duplicity of the calendar also symbolizes the DNA - the molecule carrying the genetic code of every living species. IOW, life would be impossible if the calendar had been started only in Tishrei or only in Nissan.

Am I making any sense?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

I'm not sure of where you are coming from on this. Some of the termanoligy are not the same as what I'm used to (they sound like Kabalah terms). I would imagine Gevarah was to mean Din (judgement) and Chesed to mean Rachamin.

My term of changing his mind, not that he didn't relize everything at first, but rather what he would want in the first place but it couldn't hold, but from the greatest among us he can still have this, and what he changed his mind to i.e. what reality leaves Him.

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I'm not sure of where you are coming from on this. Some of the termanoligy are not the same as what I'm used to (they sound like Kabalah terms). I would imagine Gevarah was to mean Din (judgement) and Chesed to mean Rachamin.

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Yes; that's exactly what I wanted to say.

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My term of changing his mind, not that he didn't relize everything at first, but rather what he would want in the first place but it couldn't hold, but from the greatest among us he can still have this, and what he changed his mind to i.e. what reality leaves Him.

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Maybe it was the idea - to go in two steps: from Vessel to flow?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Shalom Rav Chaim,
Concerning this Tos.

posted October 06, 2004 19:00
The Tosfos in 27a points out that this we say on Rosh Hashanah that it's the beginning of the world, the Gemarah says it's like R.E.(R'Eliezer), and we also say it, it would seem we Paskin like R.E., But yet we paskin, in terms of counting the seasons, that it started in Nisson, like R.Y.. So Tosfos answers that they're both true (Ailu V'Ailu Divrei Elokim Chaim) that first Hashem thought to have the world created in Tishrai then he changed his mind and created it in Nisson.

It seems to me that we still have a problem. If G-d changed his mind mamash, then we should have only one answer. By saying that we count by Tishrei and we hold seasons by Nisson, it would seem to me that what Tos is alluding to, is that we doboth!

What that means to me is that as we say in Lecha Dodi, sof ma'aseh, b'machshava techila. That since we see that the way we calculate times of seasons has changed from maaseh bereishiis to when the Torah was given, and we know that this was the origional intent of the Torah, we can say that there has been a change.

It is only observational though. That means to me, that it is as if, there was a change in G-ds mind (G-d forfend).

Clearly maseh bereishiis and Mamad Har Sinai both are from HaShem, what we see Tos doing is showing why there had to be a "Rosh Chedesh lechem"

That is truly elu velu divrei Elohim Chaim!

I liked the other ideas also, btw.