David ben-Avraham;
Now that we seem to have a pretty serious Teimani presence on the blog, can you enlighten us on the kashrut of locusts. Specifically, what's the locust mesora among the Teimani?

B"H
Dear Moshe,
Thanks for your question, though you may have seen posts related to this subject on our Yahoo "Yemenite Group" forum.

Regarding locusts and how that, both, Yemenites and Moroccans used them in their cuisine, I remember being told by a Yemenite woman at
Moshav B'nei Ayish how they would prepare them in Yemen. First, when they were gathered alive, they were thrown in that state within a pot of boiling salt water. They were then cooked for a few minutes. Then they were removed from the pot, and placed within a heated oven in order to dry them. They were once again removed from the oven, and their heads, wings and legs broken off from their thorax and abdomen. Presently, they were ready for eating; crispy and very, very delicious! The woman from B'nei Ayish had apparently missed that special taste when she happened to see a very large locust in
her garden one day. She quickly ran into her house and pulled out a frying pan, wasting no time to have it roasted, so that she could once again relish that most familiar taste!

Of course, we're talking about a community that had an oral tradition regarding the locust, and could recognize the signs given by the Torah for these remarkable creatures. (e.g., their wings must cover most of their bodies, etc.)According to the Talmud, locusts may be eaten with milk, or with meat. This makes them Parve!
The meat of locusts was never included in the prohibition of cooking meat & milk together, nor of eating them together. In this regard,
they are similar to fish, which can be eaten with milk, according to the Talmud, Tractate Hullin (and also Maimonides in his Hilkoth
Ma'achaloth Asuroth). Some Sephardic communities abstain from eating fish & milk products together, according to an admonition in the Shulhan Arukh, which is done strictly for reasons of health.
Personally speaking, I have never eaten a locust, but I just might be "tempted" to do so one day.
Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

David,
Thanks. But since not all locusts are kosher, do people in the community generally know the differences between locusts? Or, do they come for a shaila after catching them in the fields? Are kosher locusts know to breed with non-kosher locusts?

B"H
Moshe,
I am truly not an entomologist, and would know very little about the locusts' breeding habits. On the other hand, there are many species of locusts, but they are all still called locusts by name. They are easily discernable by those who have seen them. I have never heard about a Yemenite eating a cricket, neither would they take anything which they would not recognize as being a locust. Locusts usually travel in swarms, and are very destructive to one's crop and to vegetation. The cold air at night makes them immobile, but at the sun's warming rays they become active, and will usually fly off at being agitated. I remember seeing them in the plains of Amarillo, Texas, and they were about the size of one's index finger!
I once asked a Moroccan who had eaten them to describe for me their taste, and he searched hard for words to describe it unto me. He seemed to long for its special taste. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait until the next swarm of locusts comes my way.
Sincerely,
David

David,
Since you don't eat locusts yourself, I can't really push the issue. My question was really of quality control, in the field. If some locusts are not kosher does everyone in the community get a good education on recognition, otherwise some might be eating non-kosher locusts. Is there a tradition you know of that systematically teaches people what to look for. For example, we have compendia listing which fish are kosher and which fish are not. Is there anything equivalent in Teimani minhag on locusts.

Besides the signs, one of the conditions, that most Rishonim Paskin you need) is that it must be from the species "Chugov." If it’s not, then you’re not allowed to eat it, even if it has all the signs. This is how it’s Paskined in Shulchon orech 85:1.

Is this what the yeminites do, that they have the Mesorah which locusts have the name "Chugov" on it, or do they rely on the Shita of the Rif, which is Daas Yachid in the Rishonim, that doesn’t need the condition that its name is "Chugov"

Is an Ashkenazi allowed to eat food containing locust cooked by a Sefardi who holds that it is kosher? Is it similar to rice on pesach?

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Is an Ashkenazi allowed to eat food containing locust cooked by a Sefardi who holds that it is kosher? Is it similar to rice on pesach?

Most Ashkenazic poskim will not allow the consumption of locusts, but many will regard the kitchen and utensils to be kosher. So you can still eat in the home of someone who eats locusts.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Besides the signs, one of the conditions, that most Rishonim Paskin you need) is that it must be from the species "Chugov." If it’s not, then you’re not allowed to eat it, even if it has all the signs. This is how it’s Paskined in Shulchon orech 85:1.

Is this what the yeminites do, that they have the Mesorah which locusts have the name "Chugov" on it, or do they rely on the Shita of the Rif, which is Daas Yachid in the Rishonim, that doesn’t need the condition that its name is "Chugov"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
B"H
To Rav Chaim, Moshe and Sam,
Let me begin by addressing Rav Chaim. You asked whether or not the locust eaten by the Yemenites was a "Chugov" (חגב), which according to the Shulhan 'Arukh is the only genera of those kinds numerated in the Torah that can be eaten. The Yemenites have an ancient oral tradition concerning the locust, which I would reasonably assume antedates that of the Shulhan 'Arukh. They follow the legal rulings, in this case, of Maimonides (Rambam) and of Rav Alfassi, who did not give strictures on the eating of the these creatures. Rif (Rav Alfassi) is not Daas Yachid, as you seem to suggest.
As for your question, no, the Yemenites did not eat the "Chugov" (חגב), which genus has been translated by Rabbi Sa'adia Gaon as "GRASSHOPPER" in his Arabic translation of the Pentateuch known as "Tifsir." Rather, they ate and still eat the "Arbeh," which in Arabic is known by the name of "Jarad." This word is equivalent to "LOCUST" in English. Its taxonomic names are: Anacridium aegyptium, as also Schistocerca gregaria.The problem with taxonomy is that they erroneously apply the Genus "Locusta" to our regular grasshoppers! In this regard, this can be very misleading! One has only to rely upon a well established oral tradition, practiced by the Savants of our religion, rather than on mere book knowledge.
This comes to our question posed by Moshe. He asked: "If some locusts are not kosher, does everyone in the community get a good education on recognition, otherwise some might be eating non-kosher locusts. Is there a tradition you know that systematically teaches people what to look for?"
Moshe, my friend, just like all oral traditions, these things are passed down at random in a most most casual way, without the need of systematic schooling on recognition of their edible signs. Rather, a father or mother, on a day plagued by locusts, would simply gather them and say, as it were, to their children, "This is what my parents ate, and what my grandparents ate, etc." The Jewish child did the same thing with his children. In this regard, it is no different than in our recognition of all edible animals eaten by us, and recognized by us, without having been put through special schooling or training. A tradition is a tradition.
Today, in Israel, young Yemenite children do not normally engage in eating locusts, simply because of their being conditioned to think that these creatures are "taboo." What can we do? Cultural assimilation is taking its toll! You'll have to go to Yemen to see young Jewish children eating locusts!
Sincerely,
David

If I remember correctly, there is a white H or something on the thorax which the temini use to identify them. I dissected one as they instructed but it looked like any other grasshopper to me.
Zohar has spent years studying the topic and publshes from time to time.
H. Seri and Z. Amar, "The Kashrut of Locusts," Tehumin 19 (1999), pp. 283-299

As far as I know, there is no difference between a locust and a grasshopper. When they are about to swarm, the grasshopper changes color and joins the group.

Aryeh Shore

B"H
Dear Laurence, Shalom!
I have often heard this, but as I said, I am no entomologist. I will have to ask the Yemenite woman from B'nei 'Ayish if this recognizable feature is correct. As I've said, I have never eaten them myself.
Thank-you for the information provided about research done in the field of "Locusts."
Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Is an Ashkenazi allowed to eat food containing locust cooked by a Sefardi who holds that it is kosher? Is it similar to rice on pesach?

My friend, Sam,

Concerning your question, I have found that Maran (Shulhan 'Arukh, Yoreh De'ah, 82:5) has addressed it fairly well. There, he says:
"Is it possible for [all] other places that do not have a tradition (regarding locusts) to eat it, in reliance upon the place that does have a tradition [regarding their eating]? There is he who prohibits [doing so], and there is he that permits [doing so], but one should be apprehensive about the words of him that prohibits."
המקור:
אם שאר מקומות שאין להם מסורת יכולים לאכלו על סמך מקום שיש להם מסורת. יש מי שאוסר ויש מי שמתיר ויש לחוש לדברי האוסר

Sincerely,
David

quote:

but one should be apprehensive about the words of him that prohibits."

Do you take this to mean that the apprehension should be that the one who prohibited might have prohibited out of ignorance? Or perhaps apprehension from the fact that he prohibited, and one should not eat it?

B"H
My dear Rob,,
Since we are talking about a case whether or not one who has no set tradition regarding locusts can rely upon the tradition of the community that eats them, and that there were two conflicting opinions about whether he can do this, Maran voices his opinion that it is better in this case that he NOT eat them, being apprehensive about the words of that Rabbi (whoever he was) who said that this was not possible.

Sincerely,
David

Apparently then, it is better that an Ashkenazic person not eat at a Sephardic house that uses grasshoppers when cooking.

Sam;
I don't think that's what he is saying. There is a difference between eating locusts and being served food in a house where locusts are eaten. ALL sages say that locusts are kosher because that's Torah. The problem is knowing which ones are kosher and which ones are not, especially when mesorah has been lost. The Teimani are the only ones with continuous mesorah. For this reason most poskim say we can rely on their mesorah. I don't know any posek who prohibits a Jew from eating in the house of another kosher Jew simply because the other kosher Jew eats locusts.

B"H
By no means is this implied! Rather, it is only implied that he cannot eat the locusts, simply because he has no tradition regarding them. However, he that has a set tradition does well in eating them.
This does not mean that the utensils in the house of him who would eat them are to be considered "tref," may G-d forbid!

The Rabbi whom Maran instructs to be apprehensive about his words, as far as I am able to understand, is only saying that one who had no tradition regarding locusts cannot now release himself from such strictures. It's like what we find in the Questions & Responsa of Maharitz: "They asked the great teacher, our Rabbi Ya'akov Hajiz in his book, 'Halachoth Ketanoth,' whether or not a Sephardic Jew is permitted to make two blessings over the Tefillin (phylacteries). To which [question] he replied, 'Great joy would have been mine had I been of an Ashkenazi family, for thus is it explained in [Midrash] Tanhuma, (to bless over each phylactery) etc., but what can I do now that it's been taught me that I should not abrogate from the custom of my forefathers.' Let him look there at his responsum. By this, you see here that the earliest of our exponents have made a fence [about the traditional practices], and no man ought to break down their hedge and fence. Moreover, the prohibitive command which says 'Thou shalt not turn away [from hearing their instruction],' applies to our continued adherence to custom."

Sincerely,
David

David,
Is it possible to eat locusts at the home of Teimani whom I've befriended and continue to eat them there, even though I don't have the mesorah, to the point that it becomes my mesorah too?
The way our traditions were delineated historically is changing. Can Torah accommodate that? The fact that we are learning Torah in cyberspace and not from our Rav flies in the face of tradition.

B"H
My dear friend, Moshe,
In answer to your question if you can adopt the Yemenite tradition of eating locusts, this would depend on which "posek" you follow. According to Maran, you cannot do this. But according to Maimonides, in the first chapter of Hilkoth Ma'achaloth Asuroth, vs. 22, you can! For, there, he says: "...He who is well acquainted with them and their names, he eats them. Now the hunter is faithful over them as he is toward fowl. But he who does not have the expertise [in recognizing the edible signs] belonging to them (the locusts), he [simply] checks their features." (Namely: that they should have four legs, and two hind legs which are bent and used for jumping; that they should have four wings that cover the majority of their bodies lengthwise, and the majority of their bodies along their sides.)

Sincerely,
David

Toda! Can you go to the chat room? I want to test it.