I'm curious about the shades of halaca regarding a woman being 'yotzer' a man for kiddush Friday night. (I assume shabbos afternoon has a much lesser degree of chumra.)

I attended a shiur/lecture more than a year ago where a tangental discussion revolved around whether a woman should make her own kiddush if her husband has already made his own. If I remember correctly the theme was that Kiddush didn't fit under a Mitzvah that Hazman Gromah - but never-the-less a man should make kiddush. I can't seem to remember why.

Now back to my question, I recently experienced a group - while away from home - that the woman made kiddush. (I made my own.) But because they seemed to be quite 'educated' I wondered was there a halachic basis for it? Anyone have a clue?

Mayer

Halachakily a woman is obligated in Kiddush just like a man,and she could make Kiddush for a man.However it is considered improper for a woman to make Kiddush for a man who is not part of her family.

Thank You.

So as I understand your answer it is a Tznius (modesty) issue.

That is correct

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Halachakily a woman is obligated in Kiddush just like a man,and she could make Kiddush for a man.However it is considered improper for a woman to make Kiddush for a man who is not part of her family.

Under normal circumstances, the man has prayed and thereby fulfilled his biblical requirement for qiddush. The qiddush he makes over wine is only the fulfillment of a rabbinical commnadment.

His wife, under normal circumstances, has not prayed, and hence her obligation for qiddush is biblical. If he makes qiddush over the wine, his obligation is less than hers; this is not the way to have someone fulfill her higher-level obligation, by answering amen to the blessing of a rabbinic command.

Quote "; this is not the way to have someone fulfill her higher-level obligation, by answering amen to the blessing of a rabbinic command."

There is a rule that those that already were Yoitzeh their Mitzvah could be Moitzie others, even though they have zero obligations on them not even a M'darabanan

quote:

Originally posted by ASheinaYid:
Under normal circumstances, the man has prayed and thereby fulfilled his biblical requirement for qiddush. The qiddush he makes over wine is only the fulfillment of a rabbinical commnadment.

The Rama, I think it is, answers this by saying that when the man davens the Amidah on Friday night he does not intend that his Mitzvah Min HaTorah of Kidduish should be fulfilled thereby as he knows he will be making Kiddush on wine at home.

The other approach I have heard is that when a woman says "Shabbat Shalom" or "Gut Shabbos" she is thereby being Mekadesh the Shabbos Min HaTorah so that she will also only have a Rabbinical obligation of Kiddush on wine.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

The Rama, I think it is, answers this by saying that when the man davens the Amidah on Friday night he does not intend that his Mitzvah Min HaTorah of Kidduish should be fulfilled thereby as he knows he will be making Kiddush on wine at home.

This would require a specific intention not to fulfill the mitzva de'oraisa. How many men do you suppose have that intention when praying the "shemoneh `esreh"? And those that don't (let's estimate their numbers conservatively at 97 percent)--they still have the problem, don't they?

quote:

The other approach I have heard is that when a woman says "Shabbat Shalom" or "Gut Shabbos" she is thereby being Mekadesh the Shabbos Min HaTorah so that she will also only have a Rabbinical obligation of Kiddush on wine.

Although some posqim may say that, I don't think that all do. What I do know is that there is an opinion that by saying "Shabbat Shalom" we accept the Shabbat, but even that is far from unanimous. If it were universally accepted, then someone who says "Goot Shabbas" after pelag haminha would not be able to do any melakha afterwards.

I don`t think one needs to have specific intention not to Yotzie their kiddush Do-Rysa, when they daven Shmone Esrey. Since the best time to make kiddish is at the table with bread and a meal in front of you. It is understood, without needing intention that their is no intention to yotzie the De Rysa Mitzva. - LIke other mitzvas , like 4 minin - even without the specific intention. - its obvious that a person has in mind and wants to be yotzie, and their are many other examples, where you are yotzie without specific intention.

quote:

Originally posted by Yosef Ponak:
I don`t think one needs to have specific intention not to Yotzie their kiddush Do-Rysa, when they daven Shmone Esrey. Since the best time to make kiddish is at the table with bread and a meal in front of you. It is understood, without needing intention that their is no intention to yotzie the De Rysa Mitzva. - LIke other mitzvas , like 4 minin - even without the specific intention. - its obvious that a person has in mind and wants to be yotzie, and their are many other examples, where you are yotzie without specific intention.

Perhaps unwittingly, you have strengthened my contention. Perhaps he will be yotzei zein if he has the intention to be so, or even if he has no intention one way or the other.

Most people have no intention to be yotzei or not to be. You tell me that in such a case he is yotzei. Thus, there we are, with his qiddush on the wine being the fulfillment of a rabbinical ordinance only. As you stated:

quote:

you are yotzie without specific intention.

quote:

This would require a specific intention not to fulfill the mitzva de'oraisa. How many men do you suppose have that intention when praying the "shemoneh `esreh"? And those that don't (let's estimate their numbers conservatively at 97 percent)--they still have the problem, don't they?

It depends whether you say that Mitzvos Tzerichos Kavonoh, Mitzvos require intention.

quote:

Although some posqim may say that, I don't think that all do. What I do know is that there is an opinion that by saying "Shabbat Shalom" we accept the Shabbat, but even that is far from unanimous. If it were universally accepted, then someone who says "Goot Shabbas" after pelag haminha would not be able to do any melakha afterwards.

Obviously, this only applies to women and perhaps In Hochi Nami according to those poskim she would not be able to do melocho afterwards. My wife is particular not to say "Gut Shabbos" before she has lit the candles.

This kind of discussion is a pilpul. It is an examination of a problem which we already know the answer.
The answer to the question would be that the Rabbis who made up the prayer built in the default that one is not yotzeh with tefilah, i.e. it is the minhag for the man to say kiddush.
Similarly, how can one say the blessings on the shemah if one has already said the shema in the morning service and didn't intend to not be yotzeh.
Or How can you say the blessing on the Shofar, blow the shofar and still be yotzeh on the shofar during prayer.
I have no idea how one can say the blessing on the talit if one already said the blessing on the talit katan and one is still wearing it.

The Jews do what they do. The Rabbis get around to analysing the details centuries later.

Aryeh Shore

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
It depends whether you say that Mitzvos Tzerichos Kavonoh, Mitzvos require intention.

Good. Now you're on the right track.

I suggest that you analyze the implications on whether we are yotzei zein on qiddush hayom in our prayers when we have no intention either way. Then draw the conclusions regarding how we are motzi'im our wives.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

Obviously, this only applies to women and perhaps In Hochi Nami according to those poskim she would not be able to do melocho afterwards. My wife is particular not to say "Gut Shabbos" before she has lit the candles.

That's nice for her. In Israel, 3/4 of the population are already saying Shabbat Shalom on Thursday afternoon. And they continue doing so past pelag haminha on Fridaay. How do we treat them?

quote:

Originally posted by ASheinaYid:

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

Obviously, this only applies to women and perhaps In Hochi Nami according to those poskim she would not be able to do melocho afterwards. My wife is particular not to say "Gut Shabbos" before she has lit the candles.

That's nice for her.

Don't be so patronising.

Quote "The answer to the question would be that the Rabbis who made up the prayer built in the default that one is not yotzeh with tefilah, i.e. it is the minhag for the man to say kiddush."

The problem is that the Mogen Avraham says he is Yoitzeh his Chiyuv D'Oirasah. The Rabanan still enacted that he must say Kiddush on wine and by the meal.

Quote "Similarly, how can one say the blessings on the shemah if one has already said the shema in the morning service and didn't intend to not be yotzeh."

The Brachos of Shma really have no bearing on the Shma. We don't say "Asher Kidishanu B'Mitzvosuv." You would say it even if you would leave out Shma or saying it after 3 hours into the day.

Quote "Or How can you say the blessing on the Shofar, blow the shofar and still be yotzeh on the shofar during prayer."

There are Shitos that you're Yoitzeh right away. Alternatively, i have a shtikel Torah to explain this. I'll say it at the end of this piece.

Quote "I have no idea how one can say the blessing on the talit if one already said the blessing on the talit katan and one is still wearing it."

Why not, there is a Hefsik between the Bracha and the 2nd wearing, which is a separate Mitzvah than the first. Like Shechting two cows with a Hefsik in between (speaking or the like) since it's a different Maaseh Mitzvah.


T'KIOS D'MIYUSHOV UD'MIUMED

Tosfos points out 3 Mitzvos that are similar to this
1)Shofar
2)Matzah where he holds the main K'zayis to be Yoitzeh the Mitzvah is the Afikoman
3)Morror when you don't have any other vvegetablee for Karpas.

All these 3 you make the Bracha on the earlier time doing it though you mainly are Yoitzeh with a later Maaseh.

IMHO (L'Fi Aniyas Daati) there are two parts to every Mitzvah
1) The main objective of the Mitzvah (eating Matzah, Morror, blowing Shofar etc.
2) The conditions to the objective (you need Kavana or at least not having KAvana not to be Yoitzeh, some Mitzvos need to be yours etc.)

If one does 1) without 2), though he wasn't Yoitzeh his obligation, he had still done a Maaseh Mitzvah. Thus it's possible to make a bracha on the Maaseh Mitzvah, though you have Kavana not to be Yoitzeh with it, since it's the main objective of the Mitzvah.

This is the Svarah that you make a Bracha on the Morror eaten for Karpas "that when you fill your stomach with morror and afterwards you should make the Bracha?" What kind of Svarah is that? if you didn't do the Mitzvah with that Morror why should you make on non-Mitzvah Morror? But if we accept my Vort then it makes sense. Though you weren't Yoitzeh your obligation, still a Maaseh Mitzvah was done, and it would be improper to not make the Bracha on that Maaseh Mitzvah.

I already wrote that the Halacha P'Shuta is that even if someone was already Yoitzeh he can be Moitzie others

Since there is still an argument, so people didn't accept it yet, I'll write the Sugya so everyone can see for themselves

Brachos 48a, parpghrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf.

2) WHO CAN BE "MOTZI" OTHERS

(a) Yanai ha'Melech and his queen ate bread; since he had killed the Chachamim, there was no one to bless for them.

1. Yanai (to the queen): Is there anyone who can bless for us?

2. The queen: Swear to me that if I bring someone, you will not harm him!

3. He swore; she brought her brother, Shimon ben Shetach (whom she had saved by hiding him). etc.

7. They gave the cup to him to bless.

8. Shimon ben Shetach: What should I bless [if I did not eat anything] -- "Blessed is He from Whom Yanai and his friends ate"?! He drank the cup; they gave him another cup, he blessed (for everyone).

9. R. Aba: This is Shimon ben Shetach's opinion (that one blesses Birkas ha'Mazon after wine, Chachamim argue with him).

(b) (R. Chiya bar Aba): One may not be Motzi others (in Birkas ha'Mazon) unless he ate a k'Zayis of grain.

Tosfos D"H Od infers that he'll Moitzie others that ate as much to fill them up which is obligated from the Torah, though he only ate a K'Zayis which is only Midaraban (similar to the case of Yanai that he ate his fill.)

Tosfos asks on this that a Kutton cannot be Moitzie a Gadol since a Drabanan cannot be Moitzie a Doraisah?

He answers that's only a Katton which is not a Bar Chiyuv even if he eats his fill, but a Gadul that is a Bar Chiyuv if he would he eat his fill can be Moitzie others that ate their fill. This is because Kol Yisrael Areivein Zeh L'Zeh. Similar to the Gemarah Rosh Hashona 29a that you can be Moitzie other's in Birchos Hamitzvah though you were already Yoizeh. Bentching, technically you can be Moitzie others even without a K'zayis, but then it would not possible to say "Shechalnu Misheloy" (WE ATE from Him.) This concludes Tosfos' words, see there. This is Paskined all over the place (for example Mishnah Brurah 589:1)

Especially we do see this explicity in terms of Kiddush over there in Rosh Hashana 29b

(d) Question (Rava): Can a person be Motzi others with the Berachah on matzah or the wine of Kidush after hehas already been Yotze?

1. Do we say that this Berachah is part of the obligation or not?

(e) Answer (R. Ashi): R. Papi used to make Kidush for us and then for his worker.

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
This kind of discussion is a pilpul. It is an examination of a problem which we already know the answer.

Or to put it another way, why did the rabbis of the gemara have to argue all these points? It would have been sufficient for them to just look up in the Kitzur Shulahan Arukh.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
Don't be so patronising.

Congratulations. You win this week's taking-out-of-context award.