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GY Moderator  |
Recently our Rav was saying a dvar Halacha from a Sefer written by Rav Chaim Kanievsky. He mentions shokelling and I cannot remember what he said, but I do remember that he said that merely moving one's head about while the rest of the body is still is not permitted as this is a sign of arrogance.
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Chat Moderator |
MKFink there are boring parts in the sense that they do not interest you as much perhaps another subject matter. or perhaps for one it can be not a matter of boring but rather an issue of diffculty thus in the movement it help them from their mind just wondering to far away.
the non-Chassidim if i recalled had a problem with any form of bodily motion during the Prayer as well as other times of worship. and though it is without question the Chassidim would Shochell and some would maintain it thoughout the Amidah because they have yet to reach that point of Kavanah. which is the point of it anyways. for it was the intention of the CHassidim and the other masters of prayer for them to enter the Queen bedchammer. |
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Volunteer |
Why would you be attending a Xtian oriented prayer? |
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Volunteer |
Perhaps, one should slow down the pace.... |
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Originally posted by Paulette: When I am attending a large public gathering where there is a Christian-oriented prayer at the beginning and everyone is told (or automatically) bows their heads, I have not. (I also don't close my eyes as they do.) If I choose to make my own private prayer at this time, how would you recommend I stand? Also, is it a commandment to shochel? At synagogue, I see some people doing it and some not. _____________________________ Paulette; Would you like to elaborate on your "Christian-oriented" prayer? |
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GY Teacher  |
Quote "Recently our Rav was saying a dvar Halacha from a Sefer written by Rav Chaim Kanievsky. He mentions shokelling and I cannot remember what he said, but I do remember that he said that merely moving one's head about while the rest of the body is still is not permitted as this is a sign of arrogance."
It must be from Shoneh Halachos in Simon 48, since the Mishna Brurah (which the Shoneh Halacha is based on) brings that down there ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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A couple of you have questioned why I go to a "Christian-oriented prayer." I do not go to Christian-oriented events. I go to PUBLIC events where the focus is entirely on something else. As it happens, some of these events open with a prayer lead by a Christian minister. Then, the entire rest of the event has nothing to do with anything religious. For example, I understand that meetings of Congress begin with a prayer. In my case, I'm talking about community events. The most recent example was Veterans Day. I think it is right to honor those who have served our country, and I try to instill this same feeling of gratefulness in my children. Every year, I bring them to a local Veterans Day ceremony. Following the brief introductory prayer, there are speeches about the good the soldiers have done (preserving our freedoms, etc.), there are ceremonial displays (such as the firing of guns), and there is the singing of patriotic songs. Most important, I believe, is that the veterans there see that people do value the incredible sacrifices they made. If you're interested in the CONTENT of the prayers, in this case it was something like, "Lord, we thank you for these men who made it back from battle, and we ask you to watch over the soldiers who are still there." This is preceded by the phrase "Let us pray," which seems to be the signal for everyone else to bow their heads. He ends by saying, "In Jesus' name, amen." I, of course, cannot say "amen" to the Jesus part, although I do pray the same thoughts to my G-d. I also don't bow my head, because I feel I would be bowing to Jesus. (In previous years I have pretty much thought and prayed nothing at these events because I was uncomfortable, but then I realized that that was wrong and I should just pray my own way.) At any rate, I was just wondering if Jews EVER bowed just their heads, because I was taught not to. Also, I was recently in a community theater production of "Fiddler on the Roof." The cast was about half Jewish, and the director was Christian. At one point, during the "Sabbath Prayer," the non-Jewish actors bowed their heads and closed their eyes, and I told the director that Jews don't pray that way. Was I wrong? Someone posted way back that he had thought it was honorable for anyone from any religion to pray that way, so I was wondering. As far as I know, we also don't kneel, fold or press our hands together, or ritually close our eyes for every prayer. (Yes, I know we do for certain prayers.) Am I right with all this? I hate to be misinforming others.
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First of all, I think you are quite right to attend events like veteran's day. I feel that it could be seen as a kiddush HaShem (sanctification of G-d's name) if veterans and the local population see Jews honouring those who fought for freedom. With regards to the way we pray, I am not familiar with the halachic ins & outs. However, I suppose that Jewish prayer came before any other monotheistic prayer, because Judaism began before Christianity or Islam. Therefore, our rituals began began first. I believe that apart from bowing at specific times in prayer, the main rituals of praying are through standing or sitting, but not through things like clasping of hands etc. ANy other rituals are logical e.g. covering the eyes for the first two sentences of the SHema to aid concentration. Incidentally, I believe that we are not supposed to bow on HaShem's name even at the times we are allowed to bow. |
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I regret that I do not recall the source, but I know that I read in a Jewish work that there is a recommendation to avoid clasping our fingers in an alternating finger fashion - pinky, pinky, ring, ring, etc, all 6 on each hand... I think it may have had some avodah zora connotation ... Oh if I knew then (in grammar school) what I [almost] know now, I'd request the teacher to not tell me to clasp my fingers and put my head down on the desk. |
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Volunteer |
All 6 of what? Or you mean all 5 fingers? |
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Dear Sam: you have only 5???? Fear not, there are others like you I have observed, although I do try not to stare.
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Chat Moderator |
Paulette i am not a rabbi however i feel what you are doing is the right thing in the sense of attending such events in a Public Setting. as much it is well that you do not say amen to their prayers. i have never seen a person bow their head down expect for one part of the prayer for morning and afternoon.
as far as kneeling if one want to kneel in praviate or part of a community that prays kneeling then fine and good. (no different then reciting the evening shema laying on ones side) as much if one doesn't know how to pray kneeling one should avoid it least they error and practice Avodah Zera. I have never heard or seen somthing in dealing with hands since one is mostly holding a siddur. I personally think that it is perferable for a person to pray with their eyes close for the simple reason that they don't become distracted by what is going on around them. however this is differcult since many of us do not know the prayers from memory. |
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I remember reading or being taught that it is preferable to read the words even if one has the prayer memorized. (I think my music teachers were not stringent on this point with respect to solo performances, but I was never in an orchestra where everyone was expected to play in sync without sheet music.)( |
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Paulette;
I hope I didn't come across as criticizing you for "Christian oriented" prayer. I just wasn't clear on the context. As long as you are doing what your posek told you, you are fine. There is a tendency in some Yiddishkeit circles to treat Christianity as just another religion, especially when they are nice Christions who support Israel and are not missionaries. Based on my knowledge of Christianity and what the Rambam says, Christianity is clearly avoda zara. People involved in it may not realize or understand it to be avoda zara, they are unwitting and the Kadosh Baruch Hu judges them accordingly. However, it is more serious for a Jew to participate in it that's why most poskim say stay away from anything Christian. In your case you were at a public function and not a religious function, those are two different things. Your statement referring to "Christian-oriented" prayer sounded like a Christian function, for a moment. |
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Volunteer |
5/6 of what? Am I "missing" something here? |
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Volunteer |
There is a concept of "Oi'si'yos Mach'kee'mohs" that the hebrew letters, simply by gazing at it, helps one to be wise. |
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