quote:

I have a question for you on the ger katan. How does he affirm his being Jewish at age 13 (12 for a girl)? I have heard two views on this.

1) He must make an affirmation.

or 2) If he is silent and does not repudiate his Jewishness at that time.

quote:

Originally posted by davidt:
That question can throw up many more questions, simply because we do not have a definition or have lost teh definition of jewish and torah - pre sinai.

Regarding the dictionary
Te word jew or yehudi really doesn't apply pre sinai
extract from
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
"Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin"

and
http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/whoisajew.html
Let's look at the next generation. Why was Jacob Jewish, when Esau was not? They both had the same mother, and the same father! The reason is because Jacob served Hashem, and Esau did not, and thus Hashem chose Jacob, but did not choose Esau.

The site also says-
It is the same with Yishmael (same erason why yishmael wasn't jewish). THe reason he is not jewish is not because his mother was not jewish. It was because he didn't serve G-d.

This corroborates what I once heard. That yishmael was a a sort of apostate jew. THough I wouldn't use teh word 'jew'/yehudi pre sinai, as it didn't exist then.

The word Torah is v. general even today. I have no idea if it applied then or how it applied.

Infact, when we say moshe received the torah on sinai. that is only the 613 commandments+explanations. Te written torah was recevied in the wilderness.

We can look at what they kept though, and see the opinions. But whether you call them jewish or what they kept torah, is another matter.

Let's look at Avraham kept everything or not. rather than whether he knew everything or not- sionce nobody can know everything.
Also. What Avraham knew was at least partly or a graet amount of it, was by tradition.

There is debate as to whether avraham kept the whole torah up to mezuzah. Or whether it was jstu the 7 noachide laws + shabbat.

Note that Avraham circumcised het males of his household becuase he was commanded to circumcised them. Not because of any Torah he knew through Shem and Ever.


What he knew - or at leat a great part of it -
was passed down by tradition from Adam. There was a Yeshiva of Shem and Ever.

A site says
http://www.yhol.org.il/features/avraham_walk.htm
"R. Yehuda Halevi in the Kuzari says that each generation had a special possessor of the tradition ('segula'). Adam passed it along to Shet, to Enosh and eventually to Noah. Then the tradition went through Shem to Ever and from him to Avraham, bypassing his father Terach. That Avraham continued the tradition of his grandfather Ever is the reason he was called 'ivri' or follower of Ever"


Perhaps, jewishness then - as now - is about mission. So, perhaps Avraham's jewishness is because G-d established the covenant with him. -

Otherwise Adam would be as jewish as Avraham.

Our dictionary doesn't apply well to that time.
if in that time, keeping torah alone makes one jewish, and avraham received torah by a tradition starting with Adam, then assuming adam kept it, Adam was jewish.



There's a Q though, of why Avraham had to discover HaShem through reasoning (it's only based a midrash though afaik)


And, Avraham and Isaac were before Israel. Jacob/Israel is the first member of israel. the literal father of the children of israel. So, to associate all jews are chidlren of israel or more generally, as Israel. we are excluding Avraham and Isaac and their wives - and jacob's wife! Why does HaShem call us Bnai Yisrael? Perhaps becasue if he had called us Bnai Avraham, then teh nations would claim our heritage.

Mostly dictionary issues. There aren't many questions as to what they kept. Just around 2 different traditions as far as I know.
One that they kept 7 laws + shabbat. Theo ther that they kept all torah up to teh mezxuzah. Adn they recieved this by tradition.