R' David, my reading of the Tur is that he is talking for the most part about the Din Min HaTorah.

Do me a favour. Please ask your Rav the following question:

If a woman sees a flow of blood on day 1 of her period, when may she according to the Torah go to the Mikveh?

As far as your question is concerned, I don't know the justification for waiting 7 days before making a hefsek taharah; I'm not sure who says that this is the Halacha. For my part, I follow the rulings of the Rama and so there is a wait of at least 5 days, but the Rama does give a reason.

Kol Tuv.

Rav Chaim,

Regarding Sfekot Nida.
The sfekot you bring are well known and summarized in the chinush clearly.

Despite the technical sfekot, the vast majority of Niddot are truly Niddot with out a safek.
It is also not true that nobody knows. We are just told that with the generations there are less people who are able to differentiate.
Well now that we know that the Gzera is problematic it is time we start to get our act together and become knowlegable in differentiating types of blood. (I am referring to Chachamim of our generations)



In general Rav Chaim it come down to Haskafa. Because you don't think Judaism will ever change back to what it is was. Not regarding the Temple and not regarding anything else. It is techinically impossible and therefore Jewish law can't be a system of law that emcopases everything and that is connected to reality.

Chazal don't tell us that it is impossible ever to have the type of Beth Din that will be able to make change.

I would also like to add that we are told by the Tora that the Tora isn't in heaven. Our chachamim should be able to answer questions and doubts.
You have the view that we don't even understand the reasons that Chazal made certain Gzeiroth. Even in cases that they specifically explain it. To You the Tora is in heaven and so is Chazal.


According to your view in a 1000 years Tora will be even more disconected and we will understand less and probably not be able to follow any of the Tora. Everything will be a safek.

quote:

Originally posted by Baruch:
May Hashem Help the Jewish People establish a Beit Din Gadol that will be accepted by all soon.

Amein, and remember that the one who fights for peace among Jews will have his portion in the world to come.

Quote "Amein, and remember that the one who fights for peace among Jews will have his portion in the world to come."

Who on earth "fights" for peace?

Raybin:

HAHA! Now THAT is not something I thought I would have to explain! Well...usually one has to "fight" or "struggle" or "wrestle with one's self" in order to keep one's tongue from wagging and starting (or perpetuating,) an argument wherein nothing will be settled, only strife and irritation will be cultivated. "Fighting" for peace, means one has to war with one's ego or yetzer ha-rah (inclination toward evil/bad) in order to insure peace around one's self. This often means acquiescing or letting something go, if the issue isn't of any real or eternal importance. I fight for peace and quiet ALL the time, because I often want to jump into things that aren't healthy for everyone involved, and are not of any real importance or value. It is simply some ridiculous impulse in the human nature which desires to "win" an argument at any cost, as if it means more than it does. It is an unhealthy thing. I think that is why David Melech said he puts guards around his mouth because he knew of the danger inherent. It is something I have to fight for DAILY; (I have a BIG mouth and that is a terrible trait, it is a full time job keeping it in check).

Quote "Despite the technical sfekot, the vast majority of Niddot are truly Niddot with out a safek"

You have exactly no bases for this. This is just words of "prophecy." You have no way of knowing that. This is just an assumption without base.

Quote "It is also not true that nobody knows. We are just told that with the generations there are less people who are able to differentiate."

That's not true. In practical Rabbanus there is no distinctions taught for 700 years and is totally lost (Since the Rosh said we're not to differentiate, so there was no Halacha Nafka Mina. This is so simple .) Who do you know that has a Kabalah for the exact shade? This is totally wrong. When you come up with wrong assumptions, the whole Halacha gets distorted. The Halacha is not convenient enough for you so we must chuck it.

Quote "In general Rav Chaim it come down to Haskafa. "

You wish it. I already proved from the Gemara in Avoda Zara that it's a Halachic impossibility to change anything. Your only response to that is "I don't like that Halacha either, so let's chuck it. That doesn't change Halacha by saying "I don't like it so let's get rid of it." So far you didn't give any Halacha reasoning to get around this and no responsible Rabbi, even from your Sanhedrin, would even dream of this. That's why I addressed that question to Ben 613, to show you how far off this is, as hopefully he'll respond.

Quote "You have the view that we don't even understand the reasons that Chazal made certain Gzeiroth. Even in cases that they specifically explain it."

Yes. I think, at least in your case, I have pointed out how you misunderstood the gezairos on many levels. Even if one understands them, it would be difficulty to assess to what point it wouldn't apply anymore, which is not a formula that you can just figure out. Do you accept the responsibility for all the people that would be Over on Issur Nidos on your System? If you do, then you're a fool (or just evil.)

This is also besides the words of the Gra that holds that even when Chazal explained a reason, that's only the tip of the iceberg. They may have plenty of other reasons behind it that they hadn't revealed. They opened up a Tefach and closed a hundred AMos. But I guess the Gra wasn't connected to reality.

I don't know what more that can be said. I went through the Sugya, in which you don't give any practical answers but that we should arbitrarily find a nice shade of red to make that Nidah (which the Sugya gets more complicated now that we don't have any straight Hargashas either, just Safeik hargashos. But I'm not going to get into that, since the original Sugya is good enough.) I went through the Halachos of changing a Gezaira which your Eitza is "lets just ignore it." The problem is that you have your heart set on not giving hormones and not on keeping Hilchos Nidah like we're obligated to, so thus there is no stopping your argument. Either change or , in your opinion, Torah is disconnected to reality. The truth is, that certain people are just disconnected from Torah.

It was a rhetorical question.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

As far as your question is concerned, I don't know the justification for waiting 7 days before making a hefsek taharah; I'm not sure who says that this is the Halacha. For my part, I follow the rulings of the Rama and so there is a wait of at least 5 days, but the Rama does give a reason. Kol Tuv.

Rebbe Yisroel, ישמרהו צורו ויחייהו

Finally, we are in agreement here. I, too, know no one who says that a woman must wait seven days before making a hefsek taharah, although it is indeed practiced by some members of our community.

With all due respect, even what the Rabbi has brought down in the words of Rambam, in his view, as proof that a woman is always considered a "Niddah" for a minimum of seven days (Hilchos Issurei Bi'ah, chapter 4), this only refers to a "Niddah" who must count seven clean days, and so long as she is still counting these days, she is to be considered unclean for the entire seven days.

At any rate, you ask the great men in England what is considered a "Niddah" strictly from the standpoint of the Torah alone, and I will ask the same question to the great men, here, in Israel.

May G-d deliver us from all errors and lead us in His path of righteousness. Amen. אמן כן יהי רצון

Your respectful friend,
David

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
It was a rhetorical question.

[Suggestion: In the future, you may want to put that it is rhetorical in parenthesis, or some other indication to that degree so that the reader understands it the way you intend.]

Differentiating between Dam Tahor and Dam Tame

The Chinuch in explaining the Chumra explains that in a certain generation Rabi saw that Chachamim couldn't tell the difference between Dam Tahor and Dam Tamei. He doesn't say no one could. He says if a woman can't find someone who knows she may make the mistake and count a a day which is Tahor as Tamei.

The Ramban in Hilchot Nida also does not say that no one knew. He says that even if the woman showed it to a Chacham that did know she may make a mistake in the counting of the days.
So it is clear that some did know in that generation.

We are talking about a generation where there were probably not too many chachamim available everywhere. Today Thank God we have so many Chachamim and so many Yeshivoth.

One of the Rabbis who responded harshley to the Gynecologist't article admitted that it "isn't that all of us Rabbis don't understand the halchas of differentiating", they just don't want to take responsibility on these issues.
Again this is a Rabbi who harsley criticized my view on this, with arguements similar to yours.


The difficulty to find Chachamim that have the wisdom to differentiate between different types of blood the Ramban says is becuase of the Galuth.

With a majority of Jews that will soon be in Israel we will able to gain the Chochma of Eretz Israel.



Imposible to change anything?

This is not about what I like or don't like.

I may have many difficulties with things in the Tora but I don't question it because it can never be changed.

I believe that Judaism will at some point in the future will have to become a living religion like it used to be and not just a collection of minhagim based on sfekoth.

Every argument with you always ends up comming down to us not knowing anything today and not having any masoreth. All of Chazal is really just about learning Tora leshma and non of it is relavent because we don't really know anything. We can't even rely on what Chazal told us becuase there is so much more behind it that we don't know.
So according to this view Judaism will continue for ever to be what it is today. Even if we have a sanhedrin it won't make a difference.

You bring the halacha that in order to change, a Beit Din has to be bigger in Chochma than the previous Beit. You claim that is impossible. So in other words there will never be any change.

There are more halachas concerning this where in certain cases halachas can be changed even by a smaller Beith Din.
If there is a great need even a small Beith Din can change the halacha. If the Beith Din finds out that most of Am Israel isn't able to keep the halacha. If by ammending or cancelling something will bring more to follow the Torah.
I don't really wish to get into this because there are a lot of serious questions here and I don't claim to have the answer to all of them. But it isn't so black and white as you may make it seem. You obviously think you do have the answers to them. I prefer to let the Sanhedrin when it is established to decide on all these questions.
It will take a lot of courage to form a Sannhedrin (one that is accepted). Once that will happen I have full trust that they will approach all these questions and deal with problematic issues in a responsible way.

I also would like to stress that my agenda isn't simply to drop halachas as you make it seem. I actually would like to see us drop Hakalot and Heiterim that are way out of hand as well.
Today we follow the Torah while living in secular society so we don't have to deal with many problems in halacha.
I would like our society to be run by Torah. Every aspect of the Law to be according to Tora Law. We won't need a secular law on the side. All contracts will be according to Halacha, the police will be Jewish and will act according to Halacha, the banks will act according to Halacha. That can't happen as long as halacha is based on sfekot and a reality that existed 1500 years ago.
Deroaita laws can never change, and we shouldn't find loop holes to make them work. We should find solutions and have faith in the Torah. When it comes to Derabanan the Sanhedrin will have the flexibility to psak according to reality.

Baruch,
You are learned enough, you understand what I'm about to say concerning our tradition. When the Chochamim make a ruling and it becomes halacha, they re-program the universe. They teach that Torah is a blueprint of the universe and so when they make a ruling (even if it is "wrong") it becomes part of the permanent cosmic order. In order for the Chochamim or the Beit Din HaGadol to reverse or re-program this ruling, there has to be a very compelling reason because that change will have cosmic implications on everything else. Here is a pasuk from my Artscroll Stone Edition Chumash because you like to refer to the original written Torah; Devarim 17:9-12 "You shall come to the Kohanim and the Levites, and to the judge who will be in those days; you shall enquire and they will tell you the word of judgment. You shall do according to the word they will tell you, from that place that HaShem will choose, and you shall be careful to do according to everything that they will teach you. According to the teaching that they will teach you and according to the judgment that they will say to you, shall you do; you shall not deviate from the word they will tell you, right or left [right or wrong]. And the man that will act with willfulness, not listening to the Kohen who stands there to serve HaShem, your G-d, or to the judge, that man shall die, and you shall destroy the evil from among Israel."

Need I say more?

Quote "So it is clear that some did know in that generation."

But that was Eight hundred years ago. The Metzious is the same. This was not practiced from before the Shulchon Orech, so who would have such a Mesorah? It' impossible.

Quote "We are talking about a generation where there were probably not too many chachamim available everywhere. Today Thank God we have so many Chachamim and so many Yeshivoth."

Like the Brisker Rav said, there is not more Torah today, it's just more spread out. There is a noticeable difference between the Gedolim that came from Europe and those that were born here and in Eretz Yisrael. The caliber had been going down for a long time. That's what the Poskim bring from Nismatu Hadoros. Nowadays you don't have too many people with Shas and Poskim Mamesh on their fingertips like the earlier generation. The Yeshivos learn a few Blatt here and there, and most Rabbis are Rabbis through Likut S'farim, not from their ability to learn everything and have it clear. So I don't know where our Rabbis measure at all to the previous Rabbis.

Well I have more confidence in our generation and in the abillity of our Chachamim.

I do agree that in most cases "The Yeshivos learn a few Blatt here and there"
For that reason I would argue that we should have less full time Yeshiva Bochers and focus more on investing in those that are truly talented in Torah to allow them to reach higher.

Or have special Rebbes focus on those who are eloys (sp)

Quote "Well I have more confidence in our generation and in the ability of our Chachamim."

Who else has the ability to gage the abilities of rabbis than a doctor. that makes a lot of sense.

Quote "For that reason I would argue that we should have less full time Yeshiva Bochers and focus more on investing in those that are truly talented in Torah to allow them to reach higher."

But on the other hand, those that amass facts but don't have enough background to be able to analyze the Sugya in the most honest and straightest way. in the litvisha way. Those who don't, I find them exceedingly lacking in any real understanding in their learning..

B"H

Rebbe Yisroel, Baruch, and all others,

These are my findings:

In the Torah (Vayikra 15:19), we find the teaching:
ואשה כי תהיה זבה, דם יהיה זובה בבשרה, שבעת ימים תהיה בנדתה

(Translation)

"And when a woman suffers a menstrual flow, her flow being within her flesh, she shall continue in her separation seven days, etc."

In an ancient rabbinic source preserved in the Midrash Hagadol, the above biblical verse has been explained in this way:

The first thing that a woman sees at the beginning [of her period] is called "menstrual blood." [As it is written]: "She shall continue in her separation seven days," [etc.], and these [days] are called "the days of a menstruant." Had she seen blood also on the eighth [day], ninth [day] and tenth [day], she becomes a Zavah gedolah, for behold, she saw [blood] on three [consecutive] days outside the time of her [regular] period.

(Original text)

תחלת דבר שתראה האשה תחלה הוא נקרא דם נדה, ותהיה בנדתה שבעת ימים והן הנקראין ימי נדה. ראת שמיני תשיעי ועשירי נעשית זבה גדולה שהרי ראת שלשה ימים בלא עת נדתה

The emphasis here is on "the days of a menstruant." In laymen's terms: The days of a woman's natural purgation can actually be one day, or two days, but we allow her the entire seven days, if need be, for her natural purgation, but no more. Whatever blood is seen after the intitial seven days, beginning from the time she had her period, that blood is no longer the blood of a menstruant (Niddah), but rather the blood of a Zavah.

In short, the seven days are only a reference point for determining a woman's days of "Zivah."

We find a similar teaching in the Jerusalem Talmud (Berakhoth 37a): "The eleven-day time period between each [monthly] menstrual cycle is a halacha delivered to Moses at Sinai."

Meaning, the first 7 days wherein she sees blood makes her a Niddah. But any blood which she sees on the next 4 days makes her a Zavah, especially when that blood is seen by her on three consecutive days. (It should be noted, here, that there is a dispute between Maimonides and Nahmonides on how to interpret the teaching brought down in the Jerusalem Talmud.)

One of the fine points arising from this teaching, at least from the standpoint of the Torah alone, is that if a woman saw blood for only one day, and immersed herself the following night, but then again saw blood two days later, it is still considered the blood of her menstrual period (Niddah), but not the blood of "Zivah" (one that had an irregular flow of blood). However, if she saw blood one or two days, and then ceased from her flow, and again saw blood a week later, it is an irregular blood flow (Zavah). If it persisted three consecutive days, it requires her waiting seven clean days once the blood has stopped before she can immerse herself and reunite with her husband. (Nowadays, of course, every woman waits seven clean days before immersing herself.)

What has led to much confusion about the issue of "Niddah" is where we find in "Eliyahu Rabbah," a commentary on the Division known as "Tohoros" in our Mishnah (written by Rabbi Eliyahu, the Gaon of Wilna) a statement whereby he numbers the menstruant (Lev. 15:19) among the seven persons who all suffer seven-day uncleanness.

The Mahzor Vitri also, when explaining the meaning of נידותייך in the story about the woman's husband whose days were cut short because he had slept with his wife on the same bed while she was counting seven clean days (see: Tanna debe Eliyahu, ch. 15) explains that נידותייך means "the entire seven days of a woman's first appearance [of blood]."

David

quote:

Baruch,
You are learned enough, you understand what I'm about to say concerning our tradition. When the Chochamim make a ruling and it becomes halacha, they re-program the universe. They teach that Torah is a blueprint of the universe and so when they make a ruling (even if it is "wrong") it becomes part of the permanent cosmic order. In order for the Chochamim or the Beit Din HaGadol to reverse or re-program this ruling, there has to be a very compelling reason because that change will have cosmic implications on everything else. Here is a pasuk from my Artscroll Stone Edition Chumash because you like to refer to the original written Torah; Devarim 17:9-12 "You shall come to the Kohanim and the Levites, and to the judge who will be in those days; you shall enquire and they will tell you the word of judgment. You shall do according to the word they will tell you, from that place that HaShem will choose, and you shall be careful to do according to everything that they will teach you. According to the teaching that they will teach you and according to the judgment that they will say to you, shall you do; you shall not deviate from the word they will tell you, right or left [right or wrong]. And the man that will act with willfulness, not listening to the Kohen who stands there to serve HaShem, your G-d, or to the judge, that man shall die, and you shall destroy the evil from among Israel."

Need I say more?

Thank you, well summarized.

The only think I could add is,

“For this commandment that I command you today — it is not hidden and it is not distant. It is not in heaven . . . Rather it is very near to you — in your mouth and your heart to perform it.”
— Deut. 30:11-14

Well this is a long thread.

1. The drug that women take to line up their nidah for the chupah is bromocryptine. It is also used to change the time of nidah for people who have problems. It is a one or two time use drug and it is not what I call a hormone. There is no reason to suppose it causes any damage. However, I understand that some Rabbis give it out, which may not be a good idea.
2. The best way to avoid breast cancer is to get pregnant at least three times. This is very well established. The idea is that the constant growth and regression of the breast tissue during normal cycling overtaxes the tissue.
3. I will not go into the pros and cons of HRT. Just don't believe anything you read in the press.
4. Most Poskin will be lenient if the physician tells them that there is a problem and permit all sorts of kulahs.
5. Minhag does not necessarily rate as halacha. For example, one 19th posek when asked about the custom of waiting a month?? after parturition, that if a couple came and said they were ready to resume after two weeks (including the seven clean days), he would permit it. As for changing the minhag of your fathers, see Chassidim.
6. I remember cases of women who ovulated on the days of menses from my Gynecology course. The Jews ain't the only ones who do not have intercourse during the menstruation period.
7. As for environmental estrogens, you can checkout my website. you can find me on the net by a search of Shore Kimron. (the bulletin board doesn't like people posting personal sites)

Laurence,
1. There is more than one way to adjust the menstrual cycle for fertility purposes. Further, I didn't know that rabbis were dispensing bromocryptine in Israel.

2. Breast cancer is really not the danger we had in mind but I was echoing your thought that the danger is minimal....as far as we can tell, for now. Our focus was on women with 21 day cycles who were trying to conceive....that's quite different from new brides trying to synchronize their menses with their wedding dates.

3. HRT is something separate but it does have its own issues.

4. Most Poskin will be lenient if the physician tells them that there is a problem and permit all sorts of kulahs. [This has been my point all along. The issue is between the posek, physician and the patient. It need not go any further than that. It can be easily resolved, as you say.]

5. Minhag does not necessarily rate as halacha. [After a long enough period of time, minhag can become halacha. In this case we were not discussing minhag, we were discussing halacha. How many days a woman must wait in separation is clearly halacha.]

6. I remember cases of women who ovulated on the days of menses from my Gynecology course. [Ovulation on your menses is not considered ovulation and will not register hormonally as ovulation. So the methods we use to detect ovulation would not detect it. In real life issues are not quite so simple. Sometimes women are anovulatory because of insulin resistance from obesity. This is a situation that could be easily alleviated with insulin sensitizers such as metformin....a "diabetes" medication. So in real life things are not so textbook.]

7. As for environmental estrogens, you can checkout my website. [Environmental estrogens are ubiquitous but the final verdict on them is not out yet.]

quote:

minhag can become halacha

Do you perhaps mean that it takes on the force of halacha, but should alway be categorized as minhag?