argue about reality 01

There is a principle that chazal do not argue about facts called pook chazei, just go out and test what you are saying.
I am trying to get a better idea of the topic (any see an article somewhere, let me know). I can only think of four examples.

Example one.

In Killaim, Rav Yehuda says if you put seeds from an apple (tapuach) and an avatiach (melon) in the same hole, you will get a cucumber (melphephon)and the chachamim diagree.
Why not just test it?

There are several hypothesis which address the question
a. One should realize that what we call cucumber, watermelon and gourd today are from the new world and were not known to chazal. They are talking about three kinds of melon. Maybe Rav Yehuda isn't talking about the seeds but when the two types of melon grow together they cross fertilize and produce a plant which Rav Yehuda considers killaim (M.E.Kislav)

b. It wouldn't happen if you tested it, it just happened once in history, but made all mellaphaphon killaim forever. Chazon Ish.

Cheers,
Aryeh Shore

reality check 02

2. Bet Hillel and Bet Shamai debate two things which are reality. a. If candle light has more that one color. Bet Shamai says there is one, pure white. Since it obvious that candles have several colors, an explanation is required.
The Gra says that Bet Shamai does not disagree on the fact that the candle has many colors, but that the blessing should be on the first pure light that adam harishon receive on motzei shabat.
b. Bet Shamai says that most of the rain finishes by the first of shevat while Hillel says it ends by the fifteenth. Why not just observe what happens?
It is suggested that Hillel just feels that since most Jewish holidays are when the moon is out, that the full moon would be most appropriate for the beginning of the new year for trees
Personally, I have been measuring the rain in Israel for the last five years, and I don't think you can determine when most of the rain is over as it is too variable.

A.S.

quote:

In Killaim, Rav Yehuda says if you put seeds from an apple (tapuach) and an avatiach (melon) in the same hole, you will get a cucumber (melphephon)and the chachamim diagree.
Why not just test it?

I think if they had tested it, and got a cucumber, it would be a violation of the law against the cross-breeding of different species. Perhaps that's why they decided not to test...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Thanks alex. nice to know someone is out there.
Reality check 03

3. In Nedarim, Rav Yehoshua and the rabainim disagree whether having intercourse shlo kdarchah produces children with birth defects. While it may be a little hard to collect the data, one of them must be correct.
It has been suggested that they are arguing that spritually people who do such things are on a level that they would be punished, not cause and effect (R. Henkin)
(Actually I don't appreciate contmeporary Rabbis whose words will appear in the popular press, saying things like not observing the shabbat causing traffic accidents and disengagement from gaza causes tsumnamis or that leaving judiasm causes cancer.)

4. The next example, brings up a totally different problem that I have observed occuring more frequently of late. I never forget anything I learn, but someone keeps moving the pages. I have lost this sugia completely. It should be in Yoma 28b. Anyone have a lost and found for sugias.
The sugia deals with a statement by one amorai that when the sun is setting, the shadow from the wall is in the east. If someone finds it, let me know.

A.S.



4. Now this last c

The Gemarah is there. It's before the wide lines. It actually says about Avroham Davening Mincha when the wall starts to darken (Mashcher Koslo) see Rashi for the whole Cheshbon of when the wall darkens.

When you wrote "Actually I don't appreciate contmeporary Rabbis whose words will appear in the popular press, saying things like not observing the shabbat causing traffic accidents and disengagement from gaza causes tsumnamis or that leaving judiasm causes cancer.) "Of course you don't disagree with the concept of Kreisus, that Chilul Shabbos shortens the life of the one that perpertrates it

To Alex:
It could be that they could of asked a non-jew to do it (since it's only a Sufaik Issur, so Amirah l'akum would be Mutter, especially it's a question that was never resolved about Amirah L'akum by other Issurim in BM) or maybe find out if a nonjew ever did such an expeirment.

Reality check 04

Now in the gemara itself we have the concept of checking the facts, there are three gemaras cited by the various persushim.

1. In Killaim first perek, the debate between rav eleiazer and the rabanim whether thistles are used in a certain area for feeding camels like they do in Arabia, the gemara asked why not just bodek, examine if thistles are used in your area.
(Now I did try this experiment, and the camels will eat thistles in the galil but they didn't do a very good job. I am trying elands now.)

2. In Chalah, on the question whether Karmit (at least three different plants suggested for this in the rishonim, apparently a weed which is a grain) can cause leavening? The gemara ask why not just test it. The answer is that both Rav Yochanan and the rabbis did the test but they got different answers. (Apparently one can argue about reality in some cases.) Probably they are talking about whether there is enough leavening to be considered chumatz like the debate on rice and dochen (again many suggestions on what species dochen is).

3. The third case is in Terumah 14. Since I haven't learned terumah, I am not quite sure what they are arguing about, apparently, whether the outer layer of the melon is bitter or not. Rab Yosi says it should be possible to test (omad alav). He says they did test it but came to different conclusions as to how bitter is bitter.

Note all of the gemaras are in the Yerushalmi. The parallel gemaras in babli do not mention testing.

This doesn't mean that the babli doesn't like testing. Anyone know of testing to settle a point in the babli?

There was a famous experiment (recorded in Bechorot) where the students of rav yishmael decided to find out if there were really 248 parts of the body. They boiled down a body of a prostitute and counted the bones and came up with 252. Rav Yishamel says that was because they use a women and the pelvic bone in women remains six and does not fuse like in a man. However, that would give you 247. Rabbi Akiva says that when they boiled down the body, the dissolved the luz (coccyx).

So here we have the first experiment in the gemara and we have the same complaints I get today on my papers. One, you used the wrong material and two, you did the experiment wrong.

Sof

Aryeh Shore

This message has been edited. Last edited by: laurence shore,

I think I found another reality test.

The gemara in baiza.
All animals which have intercouse during the day, will be born during the day, e.g. the chicken.
rav meri claims he tested this by checking the night before and got up at dawn and found an egg. similarly rebi yosi found the same thing.

Three explanations in the gemara.
1. he didn't check correctly
2. the egg come out partly and went back in
3. it was an unfertilized egg and unfertilized eggs don't necessarily follow the rule.

Scientifically, hens only lay eggs during the day. However since chickens don't read scientific text or apparently gemaras, one can not rule out that rarely a chicken may lay an egg at night.
It may be helpful to note that in the time of the gemara, chickens laid about 20 to 40 eggs/year and probably all were fertilized. Today chickens lay 250 or more eggs a year and none are fertilized.

Aryeh Shore