Hi! I'm sort of new here, and I have some questions which have yet to be answered. They are primarily regarding customs I have observed, and I was wondering if these customs have any basis.
The first one is: bowing when saying the words "VeKara Zeh El Zeh V'amar" in Kedusha. I have seen many people either bow, or face, left, right, and center while saying these words. -?-
Second: Rising to one's toes when taking three steps forward after Shemoneh Esrei. We know that this is brought down regarding Kedusha, but nowhere have I seen a mekor for doing so after Shemoneh Esrei. -?-
Third, people have told me that wearing one's knots of his tzitzis outside of his pants gives him the title of "yuhara". They have never given me any sources for this, and I have yet to find one on my own. -?-
There are many, many more, but that's enough for now ...
Awaiting your reply,
Shmuel

Shavua Tov and welcome to the Global Yeshiva. You have some good questions.

"The first one is: bowing when saying the words "VeKara Zeh El Zeh V'amar" in Kedusha. I have seen many people either bow, or face, left, right, and center while saying these words. -?-"

1. It appears to me that the source of these movements comes from a haga in the Shuchan Aruch 125:2 that states: It is desirable for one to align his feet when he says Kedushahwith the prayer leader. Gloss: One should raise his eyes aloft when he says Kedushah. One should likewise sway his body and raise it off the ground.

"Second: Rising to one's toes when taking three steps forward after Shemoneh Esrei. We know that this is brought down regarding Kedusha, but nowhere have I seen a mekor for doing so after Shemoneh Esrei. -?-"

2. I dont understand why people take three steps forward after Shemoneh Esrei. It clearly states in the Shulcan Aruch 123:2 2 One should stand still in the place where the three steps have ended and should not go back to his original place until the prayer leader reaches Kedushah or at any rate until the prayer leader begins praying the repetition of the Amidah prayer aloud. And the Mishna Brura there says "for if one would go back immediately he would resemble a student who takes leave of his teacher and steps backwards and then returns immediately. Then the final action is an indication of the original action, and shows that he did not step backwards in order to take leave of his teacher. This is shameful. If, however,one waits for Kedushah or, at any rate, for the beginning of the prayer leader’s prayer, it is then apparent to all that he goes back, in the first case, for the sake of the response to Kedushah and, in the second case, to apply himself to what the prayer leader is saying."

That is all I have time to answer for now.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

Rabbi Mitteroff: Thanks for your insights. On the one about bowing in Kedusha, you wrote that it seems to come from Ram"a 125:2 who uses the word "mena'anim" - which actually means to sway. The Mishna Berura uses the same word in 95:7, seemingly regarding that which we call "shuckling", not bowing. The word for bowing is "kore'a/kri'ah". Additionally, the Ram"a in 48 (before s'if aleph) uses the word "LeHisno'eyah" which has the same root word as the one in Kedusha. He is obviously not talking about bowing there either, and see Mishna Berura s"k 5 there.
However, I personally think that the closest one can get to a mekor for this bowing thing is in M.B. 125:2 (at the end) where he writes: "[When] the MaHaRi"L said 'Boruch' and 'Yimloch', he bowed and straightened at [Hashem's] Name, but we have not found a proof for this (Darchei Moshe), therefore we are not noheg [to do] so today." So why is it done?
Regarding your other answer, about rising to one's toes after Shemoneh Esrei, in order to judge people favorably, let us discuss a case of "after Shemoneh Esrei in Ma'ariv", where one may or may not have to wait for the chazzan to start Kaddish - (it's a machlokes between Sefer Orach Ne'eman, who says that one should wait until the shi'ur of "daled amos"; and HaGa'on Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt"l, who holds that one should wait until the chazzan starts Kaddish, and on Shabbos - until he starts "VaYechulu". See Ishei Yisrael 23:63 [230].) - even though it doesn't really make a difference. My question wasn't "Why do people take 3 steps forward?", it was "Why do they rise on their toes after the 3 steps?" Perhaps I wasn't clear there, and if that's the case, I apologize. The question, though, still applies - whenever they do, why the need for "toe rising"?
Thanks anyway,
Shmuel

what does Yuhara tranlate into or even it's meaning? for it is understandable and very preferable for one to have their tzitzit revealed. but i have never heard of such a title given to a person doing what he is suppose to do.

The word "yuhara" (in Hebrew, it's spelled yud-vov-hay-reish-aleph) is usually translated as "arrogant person" (like ga'ava). The source that one should wear his tzitzis out is Mishna Berura 11:25 and 26. However, he doesn't specify whether the knots of the tzitzis are included in the word "tzitzis," although I dont see why they aren't.
Shmuel

Also, since the reason is bec. Ur'esam Oso V'zicharta etc. that part of the CHesbon are the Knots (see Rashi on Chumash 5 knots +8 strings +gamatriah of tzitzis=613)

This only strengthens my question, doesn't it.
Shmuel

Shalom,
I am not sure why they might give it the title. though one must know the history of such a group of might give such a title to a person. at best their reason for this depending on where they are from and so on comes from Shulchan Aruch HaRav "...In a pressing situation, a person is walking among goyim and fears that they will mock him, he may tuch them into the corners..."

this is the only reason for perhaps. since a person who walks among them does so with arrogrence in the sense they do not fear they will harm him. however such customs when you are told you should ask them the source as well as their history.

- Shulchan Aruch HaRav 8:19

To shmuel, yes it was made to streanthen your point

To Mack k, If the Minhag would be Davka the strings and not the knots, thus someone who will try to show he's better than others, would be arrogant.

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To Mack k, If the Minhag would be Davka the strings and not the knots, thus someone who will try to show he's better than others, would be arrogant.

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Yes, agreed, but who says that there is such an existing minhag? I have looked in many, many, seforim, even those dealing only with the mitzva of tzitzis, and I have yet to find the mekor for this "minhag" not to wear the knots out.
Shmuel

I didn't say there was, all I was trying to explain to him , if Lu Yitzur, there was one , then there would be Yuhorah. I was not infering there is such a Minhag

The answer to your first two questions are: Your right! I found in the sefer of Rav Chezner, a Posak from Ofakim that these 2 minhagim (customs) have no source and are not found in the poskim. Rav Heyman told me that we learn from this not to get too excited by what people do. We have to live a by the halacha.
Kol Hakavod & Good Shabbos.

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The first one is: bowing when saying the words "VeKara Zeh El Zeh V'amar" in Kedusha. I have seen many people either bow, or face, left, right, and center while saying these words. -?-
Second: Rising to one's toes when taking three steps forward after Shemoneh Esrei. We know that this is brought down regarding Kedusha, but nowhere have I seen a mekor for doing so after Shemoneh Esrei. -?-

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Rav Heyman told me that we learn from this not to get too excited by what people do. We have to live a by the halacha.

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Thank you, R' Mitterhoff. However, I have one small problem with what Rav Heyman said: When we have a machlokes between Minhag Yisrael(although I'm not saying that these two cases are Minhag Yisrael), and Halacha - which do we follow? This is a question so broad that only someone with extreme knowledge of both halacha and minhag can answer - and one case in point is right here. Let's suggest that bowing at Kedusha is a Minhag Yisrael (though fortunately it isn't - yet). We have a rule that "Minhag Yisrael Halacha" - a minhag peformed by virtually the entire Jewish nation becomes a halacha. On the other hand, we have a din of "D'var Hashem - Zu Halacha," which would seem to suggest that we follow halacha, not minhag. -?- (Therefore - in a case where a minhag contradicts a halacha, what should be done?)
One quick example, assuming that the Mishna Berura is in the geder of "halacha" (and if he's not, let me know. I can come up with five other examples): In the beracha of Shehecheyanu, the second-to-last word, according to the general Minhag, is "laz'man". However, in Mishna Berura 676:1 he clearly states that the word should be "liz'man" - with a chirik! -??-
Awaiting a response eagerly,
Shmuel

Regarding bowing when saying the words "VeKara Zeh El Zeh V'amar" in Kedusha: It would seem that this is a way of acting out how the angels themselves turn to each other and respectfully call to one another before they say in unison: “Kadosh kadosh…” as described in the Yotzer blessing of Shacharis.
However, interestingly, this Sefardic custom is not mentioned by Ben Ish Chai (nor by Arizal, whose customs are detailed by Ben Ish Chai). So it seems that someone without such a custom has no reason to take it on.

If the questioner is sincerely interested in learning the mekoros for Chabad Lubavitch minhagim why not ask a Lubavitcher Rav?

Clearly the Rabbis here are not bahavent in Minhagei Chabad.

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If the questioner is sincerely interested in learning the mekoros for Chabad Lubavitch minhagim why not ask a Lubavitcher Rav?

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Are you referring to "Mack K"'s post about the Shulchan Aruch HaRav? I never knew that the topic of the knots of tzitzis is was even discussed there until he posted that, and still, it doesn't answer my question. Good - so there's a heter to wear the tzitzis in. But is there anyone who says that it's assur to wear the knots out?
And, interestingly, the rebbe who told me that there is such a "minhag" (i.e. to wear the knots in) is quite a misnageid...so I don't think he was referring to Lubavitch...
~Shmuel
P.S. Was this what you were referring to? If not, please elaborate on your previous post.

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The first one is: bowing when saying the words "VeKara Zeh El Zeh V'amar" in Kedusha. I have seen many people either bow, or face, left, right, and center while saying these words. -?-

We, Sepharadim have this minhag based on Yeshayahu 6:3 in accordance with the profetic vision, where the angels bow one towards the other left, right praising Hashem with this words.

Ovadia

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mousa07,

Ovadia - where do you see from that pasuk that the angels bow towards one another?
And have you seen a source for this Sefardic custom?
~Shmuel

A translation of the pasuk follows:

And one called unto another,"VeKara Zeh El Zeh" and said: Holy, holy, holy, is HaShem of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory.

The bold words imply the turning to both sides with the hands up like calling each other.

About the source The Ben Ish Chai in Year One Perashat Beshalach writes about this.


Ovadia

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mousa07,

Hi,

I heard that the Shlo Hakodoish, says that wearing the tsitsis outside is "gaive"