Gut voch, and gut chodesh all!

I've always had various questions on what the various customs are when the Torah is lifted up after the reading. (Refered to as 'Hagbah') For example: lifting up the pinkie at the Torah, which everyone seems to do, but the only thing I've seen in Halocha is bowing!

Today a friend pointed out to me, that the Posuk 'וזאת התורה' (Devarim 4:44) is concluded in most (if not all) siddurim with the words 'על פי ה ביד משה' (Bamidbar 9:23) and this presents a problem, because that last part is from a separate verse! (And since G-d's name is involved, you'd be saying it in vain.) We checked in the 'Piskei T'Shuvos' and it says in the name of the Steipler that one should either say the full verse of either the one part or the other. Not both. I was also told, yet I have yet to check it up myself, that the Aruch HaShulchan says that he doesn't know where this custom comes from.

So I would be interested to know what other people do during Hagbah, and maybe somebody knows why, if this is such a problem, all the Siddurim have this?

Dovi

As far as the pinky goes, in the early minhagim books, one had to kiss the torah covering. It then just with the hand or to make some sort of motion when the torah moves. Using a sidur for such a custum calls into question using a sacred object for a menial task.
If you are worried about half sentences, then how can you say Hash Elohakim Emet after the shma. There is no such pasook and in some of the early minghagim books, it is expressly proscribed.

quote:

worried about half sentences,

There are also some half-sentences within the Torah, such as cases where an "if" without a "then" is stated as a warning without specifying the consequences.

Shalom, (soon in our days...)

Aryeh: Thank you for that insight on the pinkie thing.
Yes some early MINHAG books proscribe it, but it is expressly stated in Halocha that that is what needs to be done, whereas in this case, no one brings to say these two p'sukim together, and the only people who I can find that do speak on it, say not to do it.

Another difference regarding that from the Shema: there you finish off the rest of the 'Emes' paragraph, and also you're not saying half of that last verse of Shema. But here, you are literally saying half a posuk!

Rob: Yes, there are some 'half' sentences in the Torah, but those are what the Torah writes. In this case, however, you are literally quoting half a posuk!

As a side point, look at Rashi on those 'half' sentences. I think he says something along the lines of: 'If you do this...' implying: just think about what has not been said!

Dovi

Well I think it is a matter of once you open the package, it falls apart.
(This is a reference to when there is no cohen, there is no order of calling people to the torah, e.g. a Levi.)
If you accept that the Shiliach Zibor can say a non-existant pasuk with HaShem's name, the principle can be applied or not applied however you wish.
Of course, you can't win in this case. Since the alternative of saying Kel Melech Neeman to get to 245 is vehemently opposed by the other side as a maphsek between the blessing and the Shemah.
I note the Gra people make a point of saying Kel Melech Neeman regardless if it is a single person or a congregation. Actually where the idea of a single person saying something different than when praying in a minyan originates is obscure to me. I believe it is very recent. (By us very recent is something since the invention of printing.)

You're not saying non-existent p'sukim - you say the full last pasuk of Shema, and since you can't have a hefsek, you say Emes right away. What's your source that it's a problem?

Anyway, even if it is, it's not comparable with this case. Here (with the lifting of the Torah) you are saying half a pasuk - not a full pasuk with some extra baggage! And furthermore, half a pasuk with Hashem's name!

Dovi

quote:

Originally posted by Dovi:
Today a friend pointed out to me, that the Posuk 'וזאת התורה' (Devarim 4:44) is concluded in most (if not all) siddurim with the words 'על פי ה ביד משה' (Bamidbar 9:23) and this presents a problem, because that last part is from a separate verse! (And since G-d's name is involved, you'd be saying it in vain.) We checked in the 'Piskei T'Shuvos' and it says in the name of the Steipler that one should either say the full verse of either the one part or the other. Not both. I was also told, yet I have yet to check it up myself, that the Aruch HaShulchan says that he doesn't know where this custom comes from.

I'm sorry, I realize I didn't make myself clear enough.
The problem with saying that last part: 'על פי ה ביד משה' is that it is only half of a full pasuk, which in it's entirety read: על פי ה יחנו ועל פי ה יסעו את משמרת ה שמרו על פי ה ביד משה

Therefore, as I have said, a lot of Poskim find it a problem.

Dovi

I think the real problem is from the Gemara in Megila 22a that we don't stop in middle of a Pasuk. We only stop where Moshe Rabeinu stopped (end of Pasuk.) This is why we say low the beggining of the Pasuk of "Yom Hashishi" on Fri. Night Kiddush and we say the whole Pasuk before "Al Kein" in the morning Kiddush.

Thank you, Rav Chaim. That was the point I was trying to say, but for some reason I didn't make myself clear. Do you have any possible explanations how this came about?

Dovi

The source for the discussion of the impropriety of making up a new pasook that Moshe didn't make (saying aloud hashem elokem emet as if it was a pasook) is in the Rokeach, (12 th century German Tosephot). Someone suggested it may be permitted as there is a pasook like it somewhere in Navi.

Thank you Aryeh. We obviously don't hold by him because if you look in the Mishna B'rura, all the commentators there say that not only must you say Hashem Elokeichem Emes - you should/must add on V'Yatziv as well! Also, it's an explicit mishna that you must add on the Emes, how does the Rokeach answer that?

quote:

Someone suggested it may be permitted as there is a pasook like it somewhere in Navi.

What might be permitted - the pasuk by shema, or by the Torah reading?

Dovi

quote:

We checked in the 'Piskei T'Shuvos' and it says in the name of the Steipler that one should either say the full verse of either the one part or the other. Not both. I was also told, yet I have yet to check it up myself, that the Aruch HaShulchan says that he doesn't know where this custom comes from.

This is what he writes:

ערוך השולחן אורח חיים סימן קלד סעיף ג

כתב רבינו הבית יוסף מראה פני כתיבת ס"ת לעם העומדים לימינו ולשמאלו ומחזירו לפניו ולאחריו שמצוה על כל אנשים ונשים לראות הכתב ולכרוע ולומר וזאת התורה וגו' תורת ה' תמימה משיבת נפש עכ"ל כן איתא במסכת סופרים [פי"ד] וזהו שאנו קורין הגבה ואצלינו עושין ההגבה אחר הקריאה והספרדים עושין קודם הקריאה דכן משמע במסכת סופרים שם ופלא שאנו אומרים וזאת התורה וגו' על פי ה' ביד משה וכן נדפס בסידורים וקשה טובא חדא דאין זה פסוק בשום מקום דוזאת התורה הוא בואתחנן [דברים ד, מד] וע"פ ה' ביד משה הוא סוף פסוק בבהעלתך [במדבר י, יג] במסעות ועוד דבמסכת סופרים אינו כן וכמ"ש וכשמגביהה גולל הס"ת על ג' דפין ומראה לעם ופני הכתב כנגד פני המגביה ומי שמסתכל היטב בהאותיות כראוי יגיע לו אור גדול אם ראוי לכך [עמג"א סק"ג]:

Thank you very much, R' Yisroel!