A word on last weeks parsha to address this question.

" "SHESHES YOMIM TAAVOD--six days you shall work. Going to work is not a bidieved lifestyle. A person whose task in this world is to work-whatever field-must understand that his life is equal in value to the life of one who learns Torah, as it is incumbent upon each of us to increase kovod shamayim. In fact it is the one who works during the week and ceases his work in honor of Shabbos that truly MAKES Shabbos. One who does not work during the week is SHOMER Shabbos, but does not MAKE Shabbos. This is what Rabbeinu Yonah writes in Parshas Yisro: "Six days you shall serve Hashem through your work and dedicate the seventh day completely to Hashem your Lord." Rashi commnenting on the verse" re'eh chayim im ishta asher ahavta" Enjoy life with the woman you love" Koheles 9:9), explains that one must learn a profession to go hand in hand with Torah learning. While certainly anyone with the proper ability to teach Torah or be a dayan should do so-Am Yisroel need them -one who works in not living a BIDIEVED life style.
The Gemorah in Chagigah(5b) says that Hashem sheds a tear every day for one who could teach Torag but does not, AND for one who is meant to work in a certain field , but instead sits and learns Torah. Therefore a person who is drawn to a certain profession should not think for a moment his life is worth less than one who learns, if anything it is a broad life as Rav Yitzchok Hutner Zatzal, Rosh Yeshivas Chaim Berlin writes in Igrot 94.

(credits to Yeshivat Har Etzion for this piece.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

Thank you very much for that Rabbi Kacev.

But I have a question: How is one supposed to know whether one should work in the field or study Torah all day? For without a doubt, there are some people that need to study all day, as the first half of the Gemorah says.

Dovi

That is a very good question Dovi;
I would say that if someone spends a good number of years in Yeshiva while young, and still does not feel cut out for a career of full time learning, a frank discussion with his Rebbe and Rosh Yeshiva about this would be a good idea.

Thank you Rabbi,

I suppose that is the way to do it. Unfortunately, I don't think all Rabbis would give the proper advice - am I right? It's such a hard decision, I would think! I suppose one would need to choose their Rav very carefully.

Dovi

Of course this is a loaded piece. I don't know who the "Yeshivat" Har Etzion is, but I'm sure its not mainstream Orthodoxy.

Of course the piece "conveniently" leaves out other Chazals like Taanis 21a as paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf

(a) Ilfa and R. Yochanan were in financial difficulties and decided to leave yeshivah for business.

(b) Sitting under a ruinous wall, R. Yochanan overheard one Malach saying to another that they should push the wall onto them, as they were leaving eternal life for temporal life.

(c) The other Malach said to leave them be as one of them was destined for great things.

(d) Since Ilfa didn't hear this, R. Yochanan concluded that they were referring to him, and returned to yeshivah.

Or Eiruvin 22a

a) (Rav Chisda): "Kevutzosav Taltalim" - this teaches that Tilei Tilim (mounds and mounds) of Halachos [regarding revealed laws, as well as hidden secrets] can be expounded from every Kotz (line in a crown on certain letters in the Torah). (b) (Implied question: Who can expound them?)

e) Answer #3 (Rava): It is one who is makes himself callous like a [black] raven on its family (it does not show mercy on its children, for they are white);

1. Rav Ada bar Masnah was going to learn from his Rebbi; his wife asked 'What will I do for your children?' (She did not object - she merely asked how to help him fulfill his obligation to them.) 2. Rav Ada: Are there no more vegetables in the swamp?

Not to mention that the Mahrsha not only disagrees with your explanation of the Gemara in Chagiga, but learns the oppisite, that Hashem cries over those that go to work, though they were able to learn. Which he ends off with the Mishna in Kiddushin.

(e) R. Nehurai: I will not teach my son any profession, only Torah, for a person enjoys reward in this world, and the principle remains intact for the next world.

Quote "I would say that if someone spends a good number of years in Yeshiva while young, and still does not feel cut out for a career of full time learning, "

Even to your own words, it seems that you also say ITS ONLY B"DIEVED IF ONE "still does not feel cut out for a career of full time learning"
implies that someone should ideally become a Yungerman in Kollel, but if you find yourself not coping with it, so then ask your Rosh Yeshiva if you should go out to work.

Rav Chaim.
It would seem to me that just as Hashem made only certain people Kohanim, and only those people have the possibility to serve in the Bais Hamikdash, so too Hashem only made certain people with the ability, indeed the obligation, to learn constantly. And just as not every kohein could actually serve (ba'alei mum, etc), so too every person might have a different time in life apportioned to full time learning, as was mentioned by Rabbi Kacev. Most people would like to be a Kohein, for it's a priviledge and choshuv, but Hashem does not want all people to be exactly the same in our own eyes. We are all choshuv, even the kovea itim, if that is what the person is made for and fulfills his obligation, ashrecha! As the Rebbe Reb Zusia said, "Hashem will not ask me why I wasn't Moshe Rabbeinu. he will ask me why I wasn't Zusia." Of course we all know Moshe - no one can ever be like him, ever! But we have to each do the best we can to be who we are, not kill ourselves being who we are not. That's what I feel that the quote from Chagiga is saying. BTW, there are three things Hashem cries for, the third being one who is a Parnas, a leader, and should not be, as well as the other two, which I believe is stated clearly in the Gemara, not an interpretation.
Kol Tuv!

With all due respect, Rav Chaim, just because an organization presents different doesn't mean they are not 'main stream' orthodox! How can a person like you, who otherwise seems to be a knowledgable Talmid Chacham, come out with such sentences! You condemn an establishment without even finding out facts first - do you know how severely the Chofetz Chaim speaks condemns those who speak Lashon Hora - Motzei Shem Ra! - against whole institutions?! There were 12 shevatim, with 12 completely different hashkofas. So does that mean that only Yehuda was 'main stream Orthodox' and not Dan?! Rav Chaim, I really didn't expect to see you write such things.

http://www.haretzion.org/

Obviously the vort means that a person needs to learn as much as one can when working, but if one is forced by life situations to work, he doesn't have to feel like a Rasha. Obviously the first option is to learn always - but it's not neccessarily bedieved if you don't.

What about the tribes of Yissachar and Zevulun?

Dovi

quote:

It would seem to me that just as Hashem made only certain people Kohanim, and only those people have the possibility to serve in the Bais Hamikdash, so too Hashem only made certain people with the ability, indeed the obligation, to learn constantly.

I don't see why you must say such a thing. Logic would dictate the oppisite. The Torah says by Kohanim who are and who are not. By the Torah, it doesn't make any exceptions. Everyone has the same obligations as brought in Rambam and Shulchon Orech. It doesn't matter the situation. I do not believe that Hashem created anyone with the inability to learnm as the Tanya Dibei Eliyahu says. If Hashem made him able to figure out how to become an accountant, Hashem gave him enough to be able to learn. I do not buy into the excuses that someone was born not cut out to learn (unless severly mental retarded.) It's mostly whether you want to or not. Yes, like in anything, for some people its harder for than others. But if someone realy wanted to be able to learn, he would find the tools to able im to learn. I've seen this countless amount of times to say otherwise. People who overcame obstacles in order to be able to learn.

Yes, there are people at the end of their teenage years that are not succesful in learning, but that's because they realy didn't have the want or drive to make it work. Yes, for those people it would be better to ship them off to work then to let them stay because maybe by the time they're 50 they'll become serious about learning, but to say that they reached their potential is wrong.

quote:

We are all choshuv, even the kovea itim, if that is what the person is made for and fulfills his obligation, ashrecha!

But it's wrong to assume that we're all the same Chashuv. Some do better than others. There is no reason to cheapen the success of others in order that you shouldn't feel bad about their own shortcomings. It's a whole different Shmooz if what is called today "Kovea Itim" does even fulfil that obligation

quote:

But we have to each do the best we can to be who we are, not kill ourselves being who we are not.

But we must Kill ourselves to be what we could be and not to put in your entire effort to do what we're supposed to do

quote:

That's what I feel that the quote from Chagiga is saying. BTW, there are three things Hashem cries for, the third being one who is a Parnas, a leader, and should not be, as well as the other two, which I believe is stated clearly in the Gemara, not an interpretation.

I don't see this relevent to the conversation.

(Miriam 32, see above post for your answer)

quote:

With all due respect, Rav Chaim, just because an organization presents different doesn't mean they are not 'main stream' orthodox! How can a person like you, who otherwise seems to be a knowledgable Talmid Chacham, come out with such sentences!

Obvious, that I have said that, i had my reasons. It doesn't take much to underestand that someone with an agenda to equivilate people dedicating their life to Torah and others that don't is not the Hashkafa of Main stream Orthodoxy. As Laurence Shore is always fond to point out, that there is a difference between "his Gedolim and my Gedolim." A quick check of the website had confirmed my original speculation.

quote:

There were 12 shevatim, with 12 completely different hashkofas. So does that mean that only Yehuda was 'main stream Orthodox' and not Dan?! Rav Chaim, I really didn't expect to see you write such things.

Why must you compare all Hashkafos, just because they're out there that they must be all good Hashkofos, that it must be at least equivelnt to Dan's. Maybe they're the Eruv Rav's? Not all HAshkafos are created equal, and a great amount of Gedolim had problems with other's Hashkafos though they were from people that were part of the big umbrella of Orthodoxy. May the followers beware. It does make a difference who you follow and what you do. When someone says something which doesn'f fit into real Torah Hashkafa, we must point it out.

quote:

Obviously the vort means that a person needs to learn as much as one can when working, but if one is forced by life situations to work, he doesn't have to feel like a Rasha.

No, that is not the Vort. Read the words of the article.

quote:

person whose task in this world is to work-whatever field-must understand that his life is equal in value to the life of one who learns Torah,

Also for Rabbi Kacev's personal view see http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/904606335/m/372100153/p/1 for more info.

quote:

Obviously the first option is to learn always - but it's not neccessarily bedieved if you don't.

This is double talk. The first option is L'Chatchila, the other options are B'Dieved.

quote:

What about the tribes of Yissachar and Zevulun?

Yet it is still better to be a Yussacher than a Zevulan. See Pesachim 65a and is paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf
1) THE DISGRACE OF THE THIRD GROUP

(a) (Mishnah): The first group left...
(b) (Beraisa): The third group is called 'the lazy group'.
(c) Question: We need three groups!
(d) Answer: Nevertheless, they should have been zealous to be among the first groups!
1. (Beraisa): The world needs perfumers and tanners - fortunate is a perfumer, but woe to the tanner (he works with excrement and absorbs a bad smell).
Its also doubtful that there is realy too many real Zevuluns out there Halachacly as written in Shach and in Rav Moshe's T'Shuva

Shalom Rav Chaim,

quote:

Rashi commnenting on the verse" re'eh chayim im ishta asher ahavta" Enjoy life with the woman you love" Koheles 9:9), explains that one must learn a profession to go hand in hand with Torah learning.

This is why I said the vort is what it is.

quote:

Also for Rabbi Kacev's personal view see http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/904606335/m/372100153/p/1 for more info.

Wow! What a topic! Very interesting. I must say that I still agree nearly 100% with Rabbi Kacev. I'm not saying you're wrong (who am I to say you're wrong, anyway); but I would like to call your viewpoint the 'Beis Shamai' view on things. That is the ideal way life should be, everyone learning all day, every day. Halevai. But R' Kacev's viewpoint, the 'Beis Hillel' view, is the practical reality of how the world works, especially in Chutz La'Aratz.

quote:

This is double talk. The first option is L'Chatchila, the other options are B'Dieved.

You really are right, it is B'Dieved to go out and work. But not B'dieved as in b'dieved. (This is very hard to put in writing) Rather, if you're not made for learning, work. Similiar to: if you can't be a leader, don't lead. It's obviously prefered that one has leadership qualities, and is 'b'dieved' to be a sheep following the leader, but that's the way it is. So one can say that it is not b'dieved. I hope that was understood.

Two more points: 1) Yes, I think all Torah people would agree that it's better to be Yissachar than Zevulun, but the fact remains that Zevulun was Zevulun.

2) It will be impossible to convince you that another Hashkofa can possibly be correct, similiar to (l'havdil, and no offence intended) you can't convince a protestent that catholicism is right.

As Avraham ben Avraham said: "An imprisoned person can't free himself from the prison (within which he is contained). I've always thought that we are all "prisoners" of our own minds, beliefs and opinions. We build water tight prisons so "iron clad" no human being in the world (outside ourselves) could ever build better. No mater how we seek to escape, we (our minds) find fifty ways to keep us "locked up" into our conception."

The Gaon had a problem with the Baal Shem Tov, and look how it is today. I don't think one really understands what is meant when one Gadol says that another's Hashkofa is krum (crooked).

I won't stick my nose any more into this topic, because I think it will just go in circles; one camp can't convince the other.

I have hope that you will hold no animosity towards me because of my viewpoint, and that we can still have intellectually honest discussions with one another.

With respect,
Dovi

Quote "Rashi commnenting on the verse" re'eh chayim im ishta asher ahavta" Enjoy life with the woman you love" Koheles 9:9), explains that one must learn a profession to go hand in hand with Torah learning.


This is why I said the vort is what it is."

I don't see how that helps you. It says that the best is to work while learning. I think my last post quote of the article sums it up "A person whose task in this world is to work-whatever field-must understand that his life is equal in value to the life of one who learns Torah,"

Quote "but I would like to call your viewpoint the 'Beis Shamai' view on things. That is the ideal way life should be, everyone learning all day, every day. Halevai. But R' Kacev's viewpoint, the 'Beis Hillel' view, is the practical reality of how the world works, especially in Chutz La'Aratz."

I'm not sure why my side is not practicle. Not everyone is going to learn and people in Kollel do make ends meet as well as other people (most people have money problems) so ideally, you should make yourself someone whos is learning. But the thrust of the article is to try to dull the ideallistic idea of Kollel and make everyone equal. That's why its wrong.

Quote "You really are right, it is B'Dieved to go out and work. But not B'dieved as in b'dieved. (This is very hard to put in writing) "

What you mean to say that people who work are not Rashayim, and possibly even be Tzadikim. Granted. A lot of my best friends are Baal Habatim but that doesn't take away from the fact that a Kollel life is superior and the ideal situation.

Quote "Rather, if you're not made for learning, work."
I don't believe this statement, as I already wrote to Miriam32, that anyone can train himself to learn. Nobody is born with the inability to learn. Some don't want to put in the effort. But I agree that if you hadn't put in the effort to learn, and is not willing to, then its best to go work. So its already B'Dieved that you don't want to put in the effort. The Gemara Berachos 17a (and is paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf

Rabanan of Yavneh used to say, "I am a creation (who understands good and evil), like my colleague (an Am ha'Aretz, who does not learn Torah); my work is in the city (in the study hall), his is [harder,] in the field; each of us rises early to his work;

1. Just as he does not desire to do my work, I do not desire to do his;"

2. Perhaps the Am ha'Aretz justifiably does not learn, for he would not be able to learn as much as I!

3. Rejection: It does not matter whether one learns a lot or a little, as long as his intentions are for the sake of Shamayim!

Quote "1) Yes, I think all Torah people would agree that it's better to be Yissachar than Zevulun, but the fact remains that Zevulun was Zevulun."

Yes indeed, but taht's not the thrust of the article. It doesn't even say to be a Zevulun. It says just work and you're good as those that learn. It doesn't tell them to work to support Torah. Real Zevulun's (See Shach 246:2) that they split the salary and the reward of the Torah. Just suporting Torah doesn't make you a real Zevulun with just giving "Maaser." Yet, it still is a great Mitzvah and is destined for great rewards, but it still isn't comparable to learning.
Berachos 34b

(d) (R. Chiya bar Aba): All prophetic visions of future reward were only for one who marries off his daughter to a Talmid Chacham, or does business on behalf of a Talmid Chacham, or lets a Talmid Chacham benefit from his possessions;

1. No prophet ever had a vision of the reward in the World to Come for a Talmid Chacham -- "Ayin Lo Ra'asah Elokim Zulasecha Ya'aseh li'Mechakeh Lo.
Quote "2) It will be impossible to convince you that another Hashkofa can possibly be correct, similiar to (l'havdil, and no offence intended) you can't convince a protestent that catholicism is right"

But, you wouldn't consider the other way either. I would say the best would try to understand which Hashkafa is correct is to define the Hashkafa is fully, what it is and what forces them to have such Hashkafos. What are the aims of modern Orthodoxy and why are they considered different than others. What makes them tick.

Quote "The Gaon had a problem with the Baal Shem Tov, and look how it is today. I don't think one really understands what is meant when one Gadol says that another's Hashkofa is krum (crooked)."

For every Machlokes of the Goan and Baal Shem when both history vindicates, there are other Machlokes that history doesn't vindicate both sides (Shabtai TZvi, Mendelshon.) I'm not saying that it is definite here one way or another, but you can't disclaim any Machlokes as being automatically Eilu V'Eilu by saying it's like the Goan And Baal Shem.

Quote "I won't stick my nose any more into this topic, because I think it will just go in circles; one camp can't convince the other."

I don't think that's necessary true. Though your not going to turn the whole movement on its face, but on an individual bases, we see that people do change camps. I know plenty of them. Just look at the faculty of YU and a good % didn't send there children to YU, though they where sent there.
Quote "I have hope that you will hold no animosity towards me because of my viewpoint, and that we can still have intellectually honest discussions with one another."

Chas V'Shalom. I don't have any animosity towards you.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Of course this is a loaded piece. I don't know who the "Yeshivat" Har Etzion is, but I'm sure its not mainstream Orthodoxy.

This is the Yeshiva Har Etzion's website: http://www.vbm-torah.org/

From their website, information about their Roshe Yeshivos:

Rav Aharon Lichtenstein

Rav Aharon Lichtenstein grew up in the United States, earning Semicha at Yeshiva University, and a Ph.D. in English Literature at Harvard. He is committed to intensive and original Torah study, and articulates a bold Jewish worldview that embraces modernity, reflecting the tradition of his teacher and father-in-law, Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, zt"l. In 1971, Rav Lichtenstein answered Rav Amital's request to join him at the helm of the Yeshiva. He is a source of inspiration for a wide circle of Jewry, for both his educational attainments and his intellectual leadership.

Rav Yehuda Amital

A Hungarian survivor of the Holocaust, Rav Amital emigrated to Israel in 1944, and resumed his yeshiva studies in Jerusalem. During the War of Independence, he served in the Hagana armored corps, taking part in the famous battle of Latrun. Subsequently, he took an active role in the development of Yeshivat Hadarom, where he was involved in the formulation of the idea of yeshivat hesder. Following the Six Day War, Rav Amital founded and assumed leadership of Yeshivat Har Etzion. He is a dominant public figure in Israel who is widely respected on matters of religious and national concern.
KOL YEHUDA - Imrot Ve-Hegyonot Mi-Torat HaRav Amital - in hebrew.

Rav Baruch Gigi - Rosh Yeshiva-Elect

Rav Baruch Gigi came to Israel from Morocco at the age of 11 and joined Yeshivat Har Etzion in 1975. He earned his Semicha at theYeshiva and a Bachelor of Education degree from the Herzog College. From1983-1988, Rav Gigi served as a Ram and Rosh Kollel at the Hesder Yeshiva "Ma'a lot," and since 1988, he has served as a Ram at Yeshivat Har Etzion. Rav Gigi currently teaches Hilchot Shabbat in the Kollel of the Yeshiva and serves as the Rav of the Sephardic Synagogue in Alon Shevut. He also teaches at the Beit Midrash for Women in Migdal Oz and at the Women's Advocates Training Program of Ohr-Torah Stone Institutes.

Rav Yaakov Medan - Rosh Yeshiva-Elect

Rav Yakov Medan studied at the Netiv Meir High School in Jerusalem and in 1968, joined the first class at Yeshivat Har Etzion. He served in the IDF in the Armored Corps in the Hesder Program and afterwards, returned to the Yeshiva as a Ram. He earned his Semicha from Yeshivat Har Etzion, a Bachelor of Education degree from Michlala in Jerusalem and a Master's degree from Touro College. Rav Medan teaches Tanach at Yeshivat Har Etzion and at numerous Yeshivot hesder and colleges throughout the country, and is considered one of the outstanding educators of Tanach today. In 2000, Rav Medan served as a Board member of the school for conversion of the Ne'eman Committee, and thus began is involvement, together with Prof. Ruth Gavison, in composing a renewed pact for relations between religious and secular, for which he was awarded the Avichai Prize. Today, Rav Medan serves as a Ram for second-year students at Yeshivat Har Etzion, teaches Tanach and Jewish Thought at the Yeshiva and Herzog College, at the Advanced Torah Institute of Bar Ilan University and at many other institutions. In addition, he is completing his doctoral studies at Bar Ilan University.

I am sorry, Rav Chaim, but it seems to me that you are saying, "If you want to be chashuv, you should learn." Not Lishma, because it is a mitzvah, but that you should learn if you want to be with the elite.

When I am talking about learning, I mean learning FULL TIME. I never meant to say that any male is patur from learning and the mitzva of Talmud Torah. I am of course excluding those who are mentally incapable. But their are people who cannot sit and learn all day, and I believe that this is what the Gemara is talking about.

And the reason, among others which seemed clearer to Dovi, why I mentioned the third part of this oft-quoted gemara, is because
1. You said the Gemara was an interpretation, and indeed, it is a quote and
2. Because people who cannot find love in their hearts for their fellow Jew, and judge them for not being as superior as you are - who sits and learns full-time - those people should not be teachers, just as a leader should not lead. As Chazal also say that a person who is a kapdan should not teach. If you are makpid that others feel they need to be one of those that contribute in a material fashion to this world, to be a zevulun, then we need to honor that. I am not referring to a sherker of Torah and mitzvos, or a ba'al Tayva, but one who does not feel that his chelek is to learn full time, but rather to pay tuition and support those in kollel. Being a makir es mekomo is not a bad thing!!! But feeling superior is!!! Being a ba'al ga'ava is not acceptable in this world - and judging others abilities without knowing their stories is plain wrong. And we never know ANYONE's stories clearly. That is what I meant about all being equal. In Hashem's eyes, we are, as the Ramban says in Igeres HaRamban - "Nimza hakol shaveh lifnei hamakom." Which, using logic, does not mean that the tzaddik and the rasha are equal, but rather that we are all here to do a job, and whether you are the janitor of the school or a principal, if you do your job well, then you are worth keeping. We are not all principals, nor janitors, but have to know what we are doing is what WE are meant to do, what Hashem wanted us do to in this world. So if we learn full time, but are lousy human beings, I don't think Hashem will love that too much, for then people will ask, what did Torah do for him? That's why we have all the halachos of a Talmid Chochom and how he needs to act, dress, and behave. For he is NOT to learn for his own superiority, but for HASHEM"S KAVOD. And if that person is not making a kiddush Hashem, then he is mischayev benafsho.
Of course Torah is supreme, as Kohanim are, but we have to realize these are klallim, and as the Ramchal explains there are pratim as well as klallim, and we need to realize what the klallim are, and where the pratim fit. The reality of Olam Hazeh is is that their are people who as of yet are not on the level to realize that Torah is meynik the world, as such, those who learn without that realization, are not the same as those who do. SO let them learn thru the realities of life, and they will come to hakaros, eventually, thru Hashem teaching them. Not someone who feels superior, or even someone coming with Gevurah, making them feel like two cents. THis is why what Hillel did worked, and Shammai didn't. LO Bashamayim hee! So perhaps you could ease up a bit, have some rachmanus in your approach, and people might see "Deracheha darchei noam." FOrgive me, but i did not see that from your answers to me or Dovi.
Have a good Shabbos!

Gut voch!

Thank you Miriam, for putting that in, I agree with you. But what did you mean by 'Lo Bashamyim Hee'? That mean's that Torah is not unattainable. (?)

-------------

Rav Chaim, I would quote it directly, but I don't have it on me: the Aruch Hashulchan OC, 156, Se'if 1. He says: 'everyone must work, because not working one will end up being a Batlan. - But one's Torah study must always be the principle thing.' - I think all agree there!

Also, using logic: If everyone has to learn all day, who will give you your Kollel salary? Who will pay for the buildings you learn in, and the food for your (bli ayin hora) big family? In an ideal world the non-Jews would, but..... we're not in Yemos HaMoshiach, yet.

------------

And - I don't think acknowledging the reality that one has to work means you're modern 'Orthodox'. Modern 'Orthodox' means that you don't follow Halocha.

-------------

To define the hashkofa I'm trying to present: Hashem gave us the Torah, to learn and keep. He designed the world in such a way that one needs to work - 'By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread' (B'reishis 3:19). We were placed in this world, and we are forced to live according to the rules. I'm sure you agree that one cannot live by miracles. He also, in His wisdom, designed each of us differently, some with the aptitude for studying, and some with the aptitude to make a really good bargain. There are those who most definitely must learn all day, without a doubt. However, the vast majority of us follow the way of the world, and earn our keep - learning our beloved Torah as much as we can. I don't think those who have been blessed to learn all day have the right to look down on their brethren, who also support them, and say: those people are just wasting their time, and don't know what they are doing. Or similiar things. (As Miriam said). Rather, they should look at them as partners, who Hashem has placed in this world, together with themselves, in order to fulfill His will.

--------

I'm not saying this argument is automatically 'Eilu v'Eilu'. What I meant is, is that the Vilna Gaon said certain things against Chassidus, and after he died, the talmidim of the Gro went completely overboard.

----------

I've never been to YU, so I don't know what it is like there, but just because people teach at an institution, doesn't mean they agree with it!

Gut voch!

Dovi

P.S. I don't think anyone argues that nothing is better than learning, it's just sometimes (nearly all times, in fact) not possible.

Did you know that in the whole of the world before the Holocaust, there were at most 5 000 people in learning at a given time?! They understood - 'By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread.'

DOvi,
I just meant that we paskin halacha l'ma'ase for here on earth, not in the perfect world of Shammai.

Oh, thanks. That makes sense.

To Miriam:
Quote "I am sorry, Rav Chaim, but it seems to me that you are saying, "If you want to be chashuv, you should learn." Not Lishma, because it is a mitzvah, but that you should learn if you want to be with the elite."

I never wrote that you should learn in order to be Chashuv. I challenge you to find an actual quote that implies that. But I did write that the ones that are more Chashuv are those that do learn. Its a barometer of sorts to find the pulse of what is better and what is not as good. In Gitten 56b-57a that Unkelus, before he became a Ger, called up 3 souls and asked them "Who is Chashuv in the next world? and they all answered Yisrael. Being Chashuv is a Simon who is doing better. This is very simple to comprehend.

Quote "But their are people who cannot sit and learn all day,"

Why can't they? But they could sit at a desk and be an accountant?

Quote " and I believe that this is what the Gemara is talking about."

So its a Machlokes between the MAhrsha and Miriam32. Now who would we Paskin like? besides, the part of the Parnes has nothing to do with someone that's learning Torah.

The rest of your Shpeil has really nothing to do with my points. It does not come from my Gaava but rather with yours, with your inferiority complex. I've never mentioned the word how great I am (though coming to think of it... ) my point is on the institution of learning and it shouldn't be cheapened to make people feel better about their choices. We need not to discourage people from learning to try to convey to them there is no reason to go to Kollel If you can be the same great by going to work, which is ludicrous and is evil. It also says, that at first you don't succeed in learning, well just don't, since "you weren't made for it. This is why I'm saying the Hashkafos of the article is off the mainstream of Torah observant people, who are supposed to give Kavod Hatorah and is supposed to be Machshiv Torah as the best thing one can do with his life.

(Miriam your reply is in the past post)
To Dovi:
Quote "Rav Chaim, I would quote it directly, but I don't have it on me: the Aruch Hashulchan OC, 156, Se'if 1. He says: 'everyone must work, because not working one will end up being a Batlan. - But one's Torah study must always be the principle thing.' - I think all agree there!"

See the Biur Halacha over there. Especially at the end that if you have support there is definitely nothing to talk about that its definitely the best way and no problem what so ever. Once we're there, see Mishna B'rurah 2 about what is the definition of making your Torah study the main part.

Quote "Also, using logic: If everyone has to learn all day, who will give you your Kollel salary? Who will pay for the buildings you learn in, and the food for your (bli ayin hora) big family? In an ideal world the non-Jews would, but..... we're not in Yemos HaMoshiach, yet."

Actually, using that logic, if your child wants to become a doctor you should discourage him, since if the whole world would be doctors, then garbage would be piling up all over the place, so become a garbage man instead. That's why I brought up the Gemarah in Pesachim, and I'll repeat it here as paraphrase by Kollel Iyun Hadaf . (Beraisa): The world needs perfumers and tanners -
fortunate is a perfumer, but woe to the tanner (he
works with excrement and absorbs a bad smell).

All proffesions are needed for the world to go round, but they're all not equal. So too, even if there is need for Baal Habatim (and I'm not saying they're terrible people) but just like a profession, you choose which one, and they're all not the same, the same goes by what calling you go by.

Quote "And - I don't think acknowledging the reality that one has to work means you're modern 'Orthodox'. Modern 'Orthodox' means that you don't follow Halocha."

There are many regular Orthodox that go out to work, that's not the problem. Its equating oneself to those who dedicate their lives for Torah is the problem.

Quote "He also, in His wisdom, designed each of us differently, some with the aptitude for studying, and some with the aptitude to make a really good bargain. "

That's where we are arguing. Your trying to blame Hashem why people didn't go into Kollel, that he created them defective and impossible to learn Torah. That I don't believe and can't believe, because I know from experience that is not true. I've seen people with many learning disabilities as we call it, and through sheer will power, overcame their obstacles to become Talmidai Chahcumim and people who dedicate their lives to learning. Let us not forget what it says in Megila 6b
(e) R. Yitzchak : Do not believe one who says that he toiled in Torah and did not find, nor one who says that he found without toiling.

I find this line to be exceedingly accurate in my years in Bais Medrish. Those who seceded tried, those who didn't was obviously to all observers as not trying too hard.

Quote "I don't think those who have been blessed to learn all day have the right to look down on their brethren, who also support them, and say: those people are just wasting their time, and don't know what they are doing. "

First of all, I never wrote any of those things about anyone. I just said that one way is superior than the other. I don't say this because I happen to be in that group. Rather, since this is my firm belief, that's why I joined that group. I had all the excuses I wanted to go out in the workplace, but I felt that this way would give me my best shot for a better Olam Habah.

I'm being accused of writing this because of my Gaava, but I turn that around and say that arguing against it is from the Gaava. People cannot except that they're not the pinnacle of Yiddishkeit and must look at people that progressed more than them as being haughty. I know from my own experiences, since even in the Kollel world, not every Kollel person is equal, that I must fight myself not to have any Ill feelings to those that I perceive are better than me, and who do they think they are to act better than me. Hey, its human nature, but we must overcome it. We should be able to look at people that had outdone us in Yidishkeit and to recognize them for it and love them for it. I know from personal experience that its not easy. But just recognizing that you have that problem is half the battle. realizing its you and not the other person helps you to come over your anger towards them.



Quote "I'm not saying this argument is automatically 'Eilu v'Eilu'. What I meant is, is that the Vilna Gaon said certain things against Chassidus, and after he died, the talmidim of the Gro went completely overboard."

I don't think that was what happened. I think the Gra signed the Cherem and I don't think the Talmidim (who were Gedolai Yisrael themselves, went overboard passed what the Gra had in mind.

Quote "I've never been to YU, so I don't know what it is like there, but just because people teach at an institution, doesn't mean they agree with it!"

I think they were all alumni of YU. They don't take Roshei yeshiva from Lakewood.

Shalom,

Where is this Beur Halocha? There isn't any on the Aruch HaShulchan.

Just to make clear: I do not think you are arguing because of Ga'ava. If I did, I wouldn't bother, it's impossible to argue with irrational people.

When I said the talmidim, I did not mean literal Talmidim. I meant 'followers.' Like those foolish people who, soon after the Gaon died, threw a certain Rebbe in jail. The Gaon definitally did not advocate that.

Dovi