B"H

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, of blessed memory, has permitted his constituency to make use of "chalav nochri," saying (Igros Moshe ??) that, today, in America, cows are milked by machine, and not by humans. Moreover, there are strict Federal government regulations (by the Food and Drug Administration) governing what can be added to milk, and what cannot be. Therefore, there is no concern over poison being added by the gentile to that milk.

In Israel, the Kashrus organisation known as "Badatz" (בד"ץ) does not give a heksher (certificate of approval showing that the product is fit for consumption) for milk that was pumped by non-Jews, without Jewish supervision.

What is the accepted practice in the U.S., England and Australia regarding "chalav nochri?"
Is it permitted?

P.S. If anyone has the exact source from the writings of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein z"l, I'd be grateful to receive it. I only heard about the matter from another teacher, who told me about Rabbi Moshe Feinstein's leniency in this regard.

Sincerely,
David

quote:

What is the accepted practice in the U.S., England and Australia regarding "chalav nochri?"
Is it permitted?

In England the London Beis Din permits it, but Kedassiah (the Chareidi kashrus organisation) doesn't. Not sure about the others (e.g. Sefardi)

quote:

P.S. If anyone has the exact source from the writings of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein z"l, I'd be grateful to receive it. I only heard about the matter from another teacher, who told me about Rabbi Moshe Feinstein's leniency in this regard.

YD 1, Siman 47 through Siman 49, and YD 4, Siman 5.

On Chalav Yisrael:
I had been one who had adopted the leniency of Chalav Nochri until some Lubavitchers were on my case for not consuming Chalav Yisrael. With the help of Rav Howard Jachter I learned the following;

Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 1:46) writes, "In a case where there is fear (“Mirtat”) of government penalty, this rabbinic prohibition does not apply." The Chazon Ish (Y. D. 41:4) essentially accept this view, Rav Zvi Pesach Frank in case of powdered milk (ad. loc.), Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin (Teshuvot Ivra 38) and Rav Yaakov Kaminetzsky (Emet LiYaakov p.308). However, this view only allows the consumption of milk poured from a USDA supervised company container (or any other country that strictly supervises milk production). Many communities in the USA, Lubavitcher, Hareidim etc, do not hold by the leniency.

In any case, milk that a non-Jew pours from his own container would not be permitted (see Aruch Hashulchan Y.D. 115:6). It is also interesting that, Rav Moshe Feinstein rules (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 1:46) that this Rabbinic edict does not apply to non-observant Jews. Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and Rav Shmuel Wosner agree with this ruling. Others, however, disagree (see Encyclopedia Talmudit 15:174).

In spite of such a leniency, it is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein encouraged people to drink Chalav Yisrael milk based on a Gemara (Beitzah 5a) that “Davar Shebiminyan Tzarich Minyan Acheir L’hatiro,” which means, essentially, that a rabbinic edict applies even if its reason no longer applies. The Chatam Sofer strongly emphasized this point in his responsum regarding Chalav Yisrael. Although the Pri Chadash argues that milk was not a Davar Shebiminyan, namely that there was no formal prohibition in situations where there is no concern for a mixture of non-Kosher milk, the custom in most of Europe was not to follow the Pri Chadash. Rav Soloveitchik's argues that the edict applies only if a non-Jew milks the animal but not if a machine milks the cow. According to this approach, the Rabbinic edict does not apply to the milk we currently drink even if one assumes that milk was prohibited by Chazal as a Davar Shebiminyan.

A corollary may be raised as to why wine produced by non-Jews is a problem today if the wine is produced entirely by machinery and there is no contact with the wine. The Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 125:2) states that wine produced by non-Jews is prohibited even if the non-Jew produced the wine indirectly and did not touch the wine. By contrast, the Shulchan Aruch does not make such an assertion in the context of the Halachot of milk production. However, none of the other twentieth-century Poskim make Rav Soloveitchik’s argument. Is it possible that they believe that the rule articulated by the Shulchan Aruch in the context of wine applies to milk as well? This would be especially true according to the assertion of the Chatam Sofer that milk is a Davar Shebiminyan similar to wine. A proof to this might be derived from the accepted practice among all Orthodox Jews is that the rabbinic prohibition of cheese produced by a non-Jew still applies today even though the cheese today is produced by machine.

The concern of those who rule strictly is that if Chalav Yisrael is not observed then this law will be forgotten by Am Yisrael (see Rav Yaakov Breisch, Teshuvot Chelkat Yaakov 3:37). We don’t want to forget to observe this Halacha when its reason is applicable, such as in countries or circumstances where the lenient considerations are not relevant. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 1:47) writes that, “Most observant Jews and also many Rabbanim are lenient regarding this matter and HaShem forbid that one declare that they are acting improperly.” The Shach (Y.D. 118:8) points out that we are not concerned that the non-Jew added a large amount of non-Kosher milk because then the adulteration would be obvious as non-Kosher milk looks different than Kosher milk as noted by the Gemara (Avodah Zarah 35b).


Moshe

quote:

the edict applies only if a non-Jew milks the animal but not if a machine milks the cow. According to this approach, the Rabbinic edict does not apply to the milk we currently drink even if one assumes that milk was prohibited by Chazal as a Davar Shebiminyan.

A corollary may be raised as to why wine produced by non-Jews is a problem today if the wine is produced entirely by machinery and there is no contact with the wine.

Shalom Moshe:

There would seem to be a critical difference between milk and wine as to the halachically recognized practices of avoda zora....

Are there any cults which offer milk libations to their deities?

Has there ever been a ruling that an idolater merely looking at milk makes it unfit for Jewish consumption?

Thus the stringencies of wine rightly do not apply to milk.

Also please note, per Rav Blumenkrantz explanation of mevushal wine for a Pesach Seder:

Not all wine is boiled... since it is done inside its final retail container, it is simply not possible to boil wine inside a large bottle.

But milk is apparently all pasteurized well before being put into any container.

...

Now speaking of containers, are you saying that if a someone brings a brand new container, for example a metal cream pitcher, still in its original packaging from Israel, to a gentile's table, and the gentile pours milk from a sealed USDA container into that pitcher, there are those who would say that the milk cannot be used by a Jew since it was not poured into the coffee directly from the original USDA-labeled container?

On a matter such as this I think halacha gives more weight to what a person sees with his own eyes, with respect to their being permitted to rely on the kashrus.

If they have reason to believe that there was no opportunity for contamination of the milk, they are likely permitted to consume it.

B"H

Moshe,

Your research into this subject simply "knocks me off my feet!" Why have you been reticent up until now?

ממשה למשה לא קם כמשה

Thanks for providing this information!

David

David,
I do not like to quote the gedolim when I'm giving my opinion because I end up putting words in their mouths when they are not here to defend themselves. There are just too many approaches to any issue, when I quote gedolim it appears authoritative and that is not right. We all have opinions but when we voice them from behind the backs of gedolim it seems disingenuous.....to me. I like to make my own arguments without having to impute the words of the gedolim to my arguments to legitimize them.
Besides, as you know, it takes a long time to do a well documented post. I'm a rather busy man and I get a little lazy....even though I do get a little help.

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
"...We all have opinions but when we voice them from behind the backs of gedolim it seems disingenuous.....to me."

Avi d'Israeli,

Abraham Eben-Ezra had a different way of saying basically the same thing. He said:

"It is not considered a brave act to refute the opinions of a lion once he is dead."

David

A few thoughts on Rabbi Jachter's piece.


Quote "In spite of such a leniency, it is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein encouraged people to drink Chalav Yisrael milk based on a Gemara (Beitzah 5a) that “Davar Shebiminyan Tzarich Minyan Acheir L’hatiro,” which means, essentially, that a rabbinic edict applies even if its reason no longer applies. The Chatam Sofer strongly emphasized this point in his responsum regarding Chalav Yisrael. Although the Pri Chadash argues that milk was not a Davar Shebiminyan,"

I don't think that Rav Moshe's "Baal Nefesh Yachmer" has to do with that Gemarah. He says specifically that it has nothing to do with the argument of the Pri Chadash. His arguments that they never forbid such milk in the first place. We see Mirsus plays a major role in the Halachos of Cholov Akum. If a jew was sitting outside in a way, that if he stood up he would see the milking, the milk is permitted, since there is Mirsus. So whenever there is Mirsus, they never decreed.

Quote "Rav Soloveitchik's argues that the edict applies only if a non-Jew milks the animal but not if a machine milks the cow. According to this approach, the Rabbinic edict does not apply to the milk we currently drink even if one assumes that milk was prohibited by Chazal as a Davar Shebiminyan."

Along with the decree of the actual milking, there is a decree that any milk that was in the possession of a Goy is prohibited, lest he switched them. Thus, as long as the milk was not originally owned by the Jew or he didn't hand it to the Goy with a seal, the milk is prohibited. This would also explain why it doesn't stipulate anything like it says by the wine.

If the cow is treif then the milk is treif. If we rely on the tiny number of surgical proceedures during the year, then the milk is bitul in the 300,000 cows in the herd. However, if a masgiach is present (chalav yisrael), then the number of cows is fixed and there is no bitul. Therefore if you use chalav yisrael you are being makel since you are relying on a black hat and white stockings to spot the operation. In any event, more than half the milk cows are treif at slaughter so by making it fixed you are even more makel.
These problems have all been addressed in the past and have been dealt with by modern kashrut authorities.
The point is when you add chumra (chalev yisrael) to chumra (how to determine treifot at slaughter), you wind up with a koolah.

Aryeh Shore

Quote "If the cow is treif then the milk is treif. If we rely on the tiny number of surgical procedures during the year, then the milk is bitul in the 300,000 cows in the herd. However, if a masgiach is present (chalav yisrael), then the number of cows is fixed and there is no bitul."

I don't understand why this should be. If the cow is recognized that it's aTreif cow, then it's not Buttel in the rest of the cows even without a Mashgiach. If it's not recognized, since we don't know where the Treif is, is not considered "fixed" and is Buttel unless it's an important piece as in the next sentence. Besides, Baaley Chaim (living animals) are never Buttel. If we're going on the milk, which is a Taruvos of liquid in liquid, in all cases the milk is Batul.

Quote" These problems have all been addressed in the past and have been dealt with by modern kashrut authorities."

In what conept are you referring to in "modern."

If the cows are "moving" then we can go by the majority that are in Chezkat Kashrut (assumed to be kosher). The treif milk is batel after the cow is milked. However, if it is fixed, then not knowing that the cow is treif when it could easily be identified by any competent veterinarian, means the milk is not batil. (A manual was put out for the mashgichim.)
As for most of the milk cows being treif at slaughter (personal observation), our Kashrut Rav says that since most of the treifot are just chumras,it doesn't affect the assumption that most cows are Chezkat Kashrut.
As you know they wanted to asur all of the milk in American and Israel on these grounds but they backed off. That is after we explained to them that there are no cows in the herd with treif operations. All cows with operations in Israel and Europe are culled from the milking herd. The most frequent operation for torsion is done in Israel in a way as not to treif the animal. These operations in turn would be totally unnecessary if the farms didn't have to follow another chumra to swith to corn silage from wheat silage at pesach. Our local Halachic institute clearly demonstrated that the wheat silage does not leaven nor can it be used to leaven anything. Again one chumra leads to another chumra which leads to a koolah. Dialectically, every chumra must have a koolah. I think the idea that one can chumra all doubts out of existance is one of the differences between Cheredi and Modern Orthodox. (Or as often expressed by Mashgichim in both circles, it doesn't take any brains to say no.)

By modern I mean a kashrut organization with a recognized Halachic authority (it helps if he actually publishes something) and who have chemists and veterinary advisors. This applies to nearly all the various kashrut organizations you are familiar with in Israel.
I can't judge kashrut but as far as scientific credibility, I would say that בד"ץ מהדרין and שארית ישראל do a good job.


Aryeh Shore

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, of blessed memory, has permitted his constituency to make use of "chalav nochri,"

The term we generally see is halav akum. Is that different from what you call halav nokhri?

I think the expression R' Moshe used is "chalav companies".

Aryeh,
On what basis do you call "chalav yisrael" a chumra? What is the halacha on milk consumption? I thought "chalav yisrael" was the halacha and anything else a leniency within the framework of halacha?

quote:

The term we generally see is halav akum. Is that different from what you call halav nokhri

Chalav Nochri is the the same thing as Chalav Akum or Chalav Goyim.

Akum which stands for Ovdei Kochavim ve Mazalot (worshipers of the Stars) is Catholic censorsip in the Talmud and the Rambam for the word Goyim.

So the work Akum is really wrong because what is meant is Goyim or Nochrim even if they don't worhsip the stars or idols or do Avoda Zara. It refers to all Goyim.

B"H

Baruch, Yishar Koach!

You are absolutely correct. In Yemen, where the censure did not reach, they continued reading into the text "Chalav Goiyim."

David