I'm curious as to what difference there would be, if any, in burying a tzaddik and gadol like Rav Kadouri. I'm Sephardic and I've been to many funerals but never to anyone with the stature of Rav Kadouri. I did not have the priviledge to attend his funeral but the images I saw of his burial left me scratching my head.

I saw them lower his body into the ground and it did not seem to have the decorum and dignity that I would expect of anyone, let alone someone of such great stature. Am I just being picky? Are there halachic requirements for decorum and dignity at burial or does it just depend on the minhagim of the community?

Here are images of what I mean. Please watch the video clip till the end....you won't need to understand French to appreciate what I mean.

http://www.guysen.com/annexe.php?title=enterrement_kadouri

Ooops! I didn't know how to delete the message.

Moshe Yisraeli, many thanks for posting that URL of the video; it was most interesting.

I have to say that I didn't think there was anything untoward in the burial, apart from a couple of hundred thousand people all jostling to get near the Mitah!

The burial is carried out by the Chevra Kadisha of Yerushalayim, a bunch of very worthy and righteous men. Any lack of kavod [respect] shown at the graveside (like the 2 guys pushing each other) was not from any member of the Chevra Kadisha. The guy in the sweatshirt, for instance, was definitely not a member! But his being there showed how Rav Kadouri touched the lives of people from all walks of life.

As for the actual burial in the ground, I'm not sure what you were expecting, given that the grave seemed quite deep and they don't use a coffin. The lowering of the body into the grave seemed quite dignified to me.

Thanks Yisroel,
My purpose was not to criticize....only to learn. There was a quite a bit of rancor and shoving and pulling. I would have expected more of a perimeter established so they would have adequate "elbow room". I wasn't expecting a coffin, although I was expecting the body to be lowered in a more deliberate manner. Perhaps what I'm thinking does not contribute much, if any, to the dignity as required by halacha. Anyway, toda raba!

Merci Beacoup pour le video, mon ami!

It was surely an amazing outpouring of respect for so many to accompany Rav Kadouri zt"l to burial.

What were the long rectangular rocks or sticks we saw being put into the grave?

Is the custom of not utilizing a coffin perhaps due to the desire to have more direct physical communication with the holy soil of Eretz Yisrael?

In the galut we use a very rudimentary coffin (wooden box) because we are required to do so by the laws of the land. The wooden box is nothing like the goyish coffin that is polished with padding and lighting inside etc. Otherwise we don't need a coffin, according to halacha. In fact, the simpler the burial the better.

My question on Rav Kadouri had been the entropy surrounding the event itself. There just seemed to be too much shouting, pushing and shoving. Apparently there is nothing untoward about that.

quote:

lighting inside

Their lighting is to make the wireless webcam better in contrast?

quote:

the entropy surrounding the event

I wonder if we got any first hand reports of folks who were perhaps not quite as close as the cameraman, if perhaps the camera is giving you a distorted view?

It could well be that the cameraman and his entourage, who might have kept the cameraman from getting knocked over, and the camera stampeded, particularly if this was a professional camera crew, could be part of the cause of the entropy in the camera's vicinity!

I have no basis by which to judge whether this was normal for any situation.

Rob,
Your idea of camera angles is one I hadn't considered. Yes, the crowds were unbelievable.
Moshe

Thank you for posting this Moshe. It was quite an experience for me watching it and I am grateful for the opportunity.

With regard your question, all I can do is respond as a sensitive person. I was struck forcibly by the incredible commitment , devotion and emotional intensity of the mourners and by the challege of carrying out the burial in such circumstances, particularly the pressing of so many people. But, no, I also did not see disrespect. It seemed to me that everybody did their best.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
I'm curious as to what difference there would be, if any, in burying a tzaddik and gadol like Rav Kadouri. I'm Sephardic and I've been to many funerals but never to anyone with the stature of Rav Kadouri. I did not have the priviledge to attend his funeral but the images I saw of his burial left me scratching my head.

I saw them lower his body into the ground and it did not seem to have the decorum and dignity that I would expect of anyone, let alone someone of such great stature. Am I just being picky? Are there halachic requirements for decorum and dignity at burial or does it just depend on the minhagim of the community?

Here are images of what I mean. Please watch the video clip till the end....you won't need to understand French to appreciate what I mean.

http://www.guysen.com/annexe.php?title=enterrement_kadouri

quote:

Is the custom of not utilizing a coffin perhaps due to the desire to have more direct physical communication with the holy soil of Eretz Yisrael?

Not just in Eretz Yisrael; it is preferable to bury a person directly in the earth anywhere in the world. So in those places that require burial in a coffin by law, we make a hole or two in the bottom of the coffin so that there is a connection with the earth.

But you are right that the earth of Eretz Yisrael is special, as we also have the custom of placing some earth from Eretz Yisrael on the decased in the coffin - where I come from we place it on the eyes, hands and Bris Kodesh. While doing so we recite the verse, וכפר אדמתו עמו "And He will grant atonement to His Land and His People." Deut. 32:43

quote:

What were the long rectangular rocks or sticks we saw being put into the grave?

Rob,
Sorry I didn't mean to ignore your post. I don't know what those "beams", they are inserting into the grave, might me. Perhaps someone more knowlegdeable could tell us.

quote:

Their lighting is to make the wireless webcam better in contrast?

Some goyish undertakers really take advantage of grieving families and offer them lighting and other strange unnecessities .....well I guess webcam etc....

B"H
The custom of Jewish burial, at least in Israel, is such: After digging a grave, blocks of stone or cement are placed within the grave around its sides in order to hold a slab of stone that will cover it. The Halacha requires that there be at least the hollow space of a handbreadth between the corps and the gound above him, in order to break-off what would otherwise constitute an unbroken connection of tum'ah (defilement) that would rise from the grave and go directly upwards into the sky, making anyone who hovered over it, or any air-plane that flew above it, defiled by reason of that dead corps.

Sincerely,
David

B"H
CORRECTION:
Should have written, "corpse."

quote:

blocks of stone or cement are placed within the grave around its sides in order to hold a slab of stone that will cover it.

This is what I saw in the movie then.

quote:

the hollow space of a handbreadth between the corps and the gound above him,

Is there anything like this done in graves where coffins are used which will sink down?

Or perhaps the air gap is only necessary for a certain amount of time until the coffin itself might sink down, after which perhaps the tumah itself is decreased????

Rob,
You'd need a tumah-meter for that one

quote:

The Halacha requires that there be at least the hollow space of a handbreadth between the corpse and the gound above him, in order to break-off what would otherwise constitute an unbroken connection of tum'ah (defilement) that would rise from the grave and go directly upwards into the sky, making anyone who hovered over it, or any air-plane that flew above it, defiled by reason of that dead corpse

I'm not sure that the Halacha requires this. Indeed, you may recall the problems Kohanim encountered with El Al whose flight path was over a cemetery.

Yisroel,
I'm not familiar with the kohanim and tumah over cemetaries. Could you please elaborate? Did El Al have to change its flight paths to avoid cemetaries?

A Kohen is not permitted to be defiled by the impurity [tumah] of a dead body. This includes not being in the same building as a dead body (called "tumas ohel") and also anywhere where the tumah goes.

Since this type of tumah goes vertically up to the sky, if there is nothing that prevents it from rising, then the Kohen may not pass over the dead body, even at a height of 30,000 feet.

In regard to the El Al problem, have a look at this article Article about El Al Flight Path

One way of preventing the tumah going upwards is if there is a space of a tefach [handbreadth - about 4 inches or 10 cm] between the body and the top of the grave or coffin.

It is interesting to note that in regard to the following paragraph from the article, Dayan Chanoch Ehrentreu, Rosh Beis Din of the London Beis Din (and who is a Kohen) was reported to have used such a special plastic bag when flying from Israel:

At first it was suggested that perhaps Kohanim could hermetically seal themselves in plastic bags (which are not mekablei tumah) as the plane passes over the cemetery. That solution, however, was rejected on both halachic and safety grounds.

Yisroel,
Thanks. I've understood the tumah inside a building...like a hospital, for example, to be problematic for kohanim. But at 30,000 ft? I'm assuming gedolim have it down to a science. My question is, how have they determined path, trajectory, movement etc of tumah? Does it "radiate" or is it "diffuse"? Otherwise it could escape from the windows of the the hospital into the neighborhoods if it is good for 30,000ft. Indeed, the entire planet would be very contaminated with tumah that kohanim could not live here. If a kohane is having to use a plastic bag at 30,000ft, why not a plastic bag on the street outside the emergency room?