(I am sure that this is an easy question to the teachers here, but since I was going to use Hebrew alliterations, I felt I shoudl put it here and not in regular "Beis Midrash")

In this parshah, the opening verse goes that "...Yosef ben sh'va esreh hayah ro'eh et-ekhav batsoan vehu na'ar".

One more sentence to confuse me, I guess. Was Joseph shepherding "tsoan" or "ekhav"? The sheep or his brothers? Judging by the verse that follows that he was delivering bad gossips of his brothers to his father's ears, it would seem that he was shepherding his brothers. There is no big deal in being a "na'ar" and shepherding with older brothers, yet Torah specifically indicates that he was a shepherd - and was a youngster. Grammar ("et-ekhav") also seems to indicate that he was the watcher over his brothers, as does the fact that he was telling on his brothers to their father.

And another question. If at 17 Joseph was still a "na'ar", when in our history did the Bar Mitzvah age move to 13?

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The possuk means that Yosef was shepherding the sheep WITH his brothers.
The word na'ar means a young person,not a minor.So even one who is past bar-mitzvah can be referred to as a na'ar

Thank you, Rabbi Kacev. So it is not true that Yaakov assigned him to be like an overseer after his brothers, and all the spying and tattletaling after them that he was doing was of his own accord and not at his father's bidding; correct? I am just trying to understand the characters of the Torah heroes, to see them as humans, if you will. That makes the stories less allegorical and more true-story-like. This way, when I am debating with a non-Jew, it becomes much easier for me to explain why we believe that all these events actually happened.

Naar is also refering to that he was doing "childish" things, like being to concerned about his appearence.

That is correct. However let me point out that the talebearing of Yosef was not of a false or malicous nature.He felt that he had seen his brothers act in violation of certain Torah laws and he felt it was his obligation to rectify their behavior by reporting it to his father.

Allow me to add that while it is ok to make the episodes of the Torah more "storylike",it should not be done at the expense of making these great people look more sinfull or less righteous than they really were.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Allow me to add that while it is ok to make the episodes of the Torah more "storylike",it should not be done at the expense of making these great people look more sinfull or less righteous than they really were.

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That was the last thing I could possibly have thought to do - but I didn't.

I apologize if my choice of words offended anyone on this forum.


It is their humanity that is so appealing; they are not like Hercules, or the titans, or Odysseus of the Greeks; on the contrary, they are human beings, and righteous at that, which makes them even greater.

Of course the talebearing of Yosef was not of a false or malicous nature: he was not telling lies, and he was not attempting to set up his brothers for a punishment. Being a young man, looking up to his older brothers, and not having any authority among them to tell them when they were doing bad things (such as gossiping), he went to his father to discuss it with him. Nothing's wrong with that, but it also makes his brothers' angst with him so much more understandable.

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I did not think you were. I was just mentioning it for public knowledge

Thank you. Another question on the same Parshah. What do the Sages say about it being a lesson in parenting?

I guess the most important lesson would be the perils of showing overt favoritism to one child over the other

I thought so too... By the way, have there been any parallels drawn between Vayeshev and the Cain and Avel story by any of the commentators?

Not that I am aware of. The dispute and the motive for the killing Hevel were much different than the one in this parsha

quote:

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Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Not that I am aware of. The dispute and the motive for the killing Hevel were much different than the one in this parsha

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Yes, but the feelings on both sides were the same, I think... And Yosef's brothers demonstrated a lot more maturity by having decided not to kill him. The reason I am asking these weird questions is I recall reading - or hearing somewhere from somebody - that the entire Tanach is an accurate account of evolution of human ethics and recognition for dignity. Until then, I had not thought of it this way, but when I started, I am finding more and more confirmations to this idea.

Now, of course, it is only one of the "faces of Torah"; only one of the infinity of its aspects. But I was just wondering if this does not show how in our quest for performance of the Mitzvoth, giving Tzedakah, studying Torah and Talmud, - and even not doing all that - we as the human beings, the Homo Sapiens, the Bnei Adam, - too are evolving our moral and ethical norms to what Hashem wants us to be. Like Yaakov evolved from trickster-on-demand on par with Laban to a righteous man, so too are we evolving to becoming righteous. And then our job as Jews is to be at the forefront of this trend.

Am I making any sense?

I would like to put in a few words here. Firstly, we must say logicly that the 12 tribes were very rightous, or why else did Hasem choose them? Why did he put their names on the breastplate and filling stones as a rememberance if they weren't rightous people? This episode seems to be the only place where they seem to have fall into a sin, but the whole rest of their lives were totally rightous, which the Torah doesn't indicate the same was true by Cain.

Thus deduced that they were rightous people, thus the commentaters have come up with explanations why these rightous people did such a heneous act. Thus they say that they felt Josef to a threat to their very lives etc. and thus getting him out of the picture was an obligation (Rodeph), but since they jumped to a hastey conclusion which was false, or they let their biases against Yosef to blind their decision, this is were they ere.

By Yaakov, he was not a tricker per se, only to deal with a tricker, you need to be crooked yourself to balance out his crookedness (The Gemarah in Bava Basra has Rachel asking him this very question Is it right for the rightous to trick in which Yaakov answers like I did). On the contrary, that Yaakov was a "Tam", someone by nature an honest , outside like the inside, person, In the cases he needed to, he had to overcome his personality in order to get what the situation called for.

Rav Chaim, thank you for your comment. But doesn't Hashem say to Israelites that it is not for their own merit, but for the merit of their fathers Abraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov that He is giving them the land He had promised them. No such promises were made to any of Jacob's sons... And at least four of the sons had committed some iniquities: Shimon and Levi had massacred a city; Reuvein had slept with his father's concubine; Judah had followed his lust to a woman who he had assumed was a harlot and then did not pay her the promised kid of a goat. It seems that the point of Torah is that because they overcame their lust for control, power, vengeance, and their hatred for their own brother, these men were doubly righteous ( http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=305608715&f=814606335&m=148107077&r=357102008#357102008 ), just as their father before them had sincerely repented ("Katonti") his sins of trickery that he had done - with a heavy heart, but done nevertheless, and so G-d sent an angel to wrestle with him and because he had a much bigger Yetzer haTov than Yetzer haRa, he was blessed and got a new identity - a new name and a new gait.

BTW, does any Commentary say about why it was his leg and not his arm, neck, finger that was affected? My thought is that it is because he now had to walk differently, walk with Hashem and not to stray from G-d's ways.

Am I making any sense?

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Alex;
To truly understand these stories in the Torah, they must be learned with our great commentators
such as Rashi. Then it will become clear to you that none of these acts were iniquities. The Torah never says that Shimon and Levi were wrong to wipe out the city. In fact many commentaries say they acted correctly.
Reuven NEVER slept with the concubine of Yaakov.All he did was move Yaakov's bed into the tent of Leah.
Yehudah committed no wrong with what he believed was a harlot, because at this point in time harlotry was not forbidden.
Lastly no where does it say Yaakov did Teshuvah for tricking Lavan. What he did was perfectly justified to prevent Lavan from cheating him.
As you can see when these stories are studied correctly it puts these episodes in a different light.

Dear Rabbi Kacev,

With all respect, I am not sure I agree.


Vayishlach: Gen 35 " 22. And it came to pass when Israel sojourned in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah, his father's concubine, and Israel heard "

Rashi: "22. ... 'and lay'. Since he (Reuben) disarranged his (Jacob’s) bed, Scripture considers it as if he had lain with her."


From Vayechi:

"3. Reuben, you are my firstborn, my strength and the first of my might. superior in rank and superior in power. 4. the restlessness of water; you shall not have superiority, for you ascended upon your father's couch; then you profaned [Him Who] ascended upon my bed.

5. Simeon and Levi are brothers; stolen instruments are their weapons. 6. Let my soul not enter their counsel; my honor, you shall not join their assembly, for in their wrath they killed a man, and with their will they hamstrung a bull. 7. Cursed be their wrath for it is mighty, and their anger because it is harsh. I will separate them throughout Jacob, and I will scatter them throughout Israel. "

And yes, of course Yaakov did not trick because he wanted to, but Katonti is probably the first recorded repentance prayer in its class of depth and power. Vayishlach (Gen.32:11) Rashi:

"11. I have become small. My merits have diminished because of the kindnesses and the truth that You have rendered me. Therefore, I fear lest I have became sullied with sin since [the time that] You promised me, and it will cause me to be delivered into Esau’s hand[s]. — [from Shab. 32a, Ta’anith 20b, Ber. 41] "

It is not teshuvah for tricking Lavan, but teshuvah for having been forced to trick.

I don't mean to offend. My knowledge of our great commentators may not be as systemic or profound as I would like it to be, but I do read them. And the most powerful lessons come when we don't deny what happened in our experience, but learn from it.

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Dear Alex,
I am duly impressed with your knowledge of the commentaries and quotes.
When we wrote that they haven't sinned, it meant that the sin wasn't great as it sounds in the verse itself , but rather a much lesser sin. Only written in a very harsh way to show how terrible any sin is, and how strict he is on the righteous (I wrote an explanation why in my piece on Braishes, see there)

Regarding the sin of Reuvain, you also quote that he didn't actually slept, but he disarranged the bed (to Laeh's tent from Bilbao, to protest that her mother should come first before the maid servants). This is learnt from the Torah says in middle of that verse that the sons of Yaakov was 12, which seems out of place, but to say that even after this episode all were the same (righteous) since Rueven didn't sin so badly. So the sin is not as severe as it sounds, and for being the one bad thing he did in his life, not a bad "batting average". But he still needed to be punished , so that's why he lost the firstborn rights.

Shimon and Levi, although they sinned, but not for killing, like R' kacev says, but rather for endangering their families for revenge from the Canaanites, because they may feel they were trying to take over Israel now. That was what Yaakov told them, and that's why the verse said afterwards that Hashem put fear on the inhabitants of Cannan.

With your quote from Yaakov, if you look closely that he says "lest I became sinful" and not that "I was sinful". It would seem that it wasn't for a known sin, but maybe for a forgotten sin, or something that he thought was not a sin, but really was. It could of been he had no sin, but he didn't want to rely on that he had no sin, and pray that Hashem should save him, even if it was the case he had some unknown sin

Dear Rav Chaim,

Thank you. Your compliment means a lot to me.

I did read your explanations. I understand that what Yaakov considered evil in his children may very well among us be considered righteous behavior.

In this stage of my life, I am trying to read Torah from the position of its characters. (approaching the age when R' Akiva started to learn ; about time I started to learn too...) In addition to the universal notions of sin as dictated by the Commandments of Torah and their accepted interpretations, it seems to me important to also see what Avraham, Yitzchak, Yaakov, or Judah, or Yosef, or Reuven consider sin and what they consider righteous behavior. It seems to me that for them Hidur Mitzvah meant being stricter to themselves than to others. Yaakov is stricter to his sons than we are; and that's how it should be: they are our forefathers, and we should show respect, whereas they are his sons, and it is his responsibility to make sure they grow up to be righteous people and merit return to the Promised Land.

Rabbi Kacev, I understand your indignation at my comment about the iniquities. I am not bad-mouthing our ansestors. I am learning from them - from what they did right AND what they did wrong - because they are at the root of what we all are today.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alex:
...from what they did right AND what they did wrong - because they are at the root of what we all are today...QUOTE]

But, Alex, the thing is that though it seems that they did various things wrong, they didn't. The Talmud says numerous times about numerous people (i.e. Reuven,, Yehuda (Judah), Shaul (Saul), Dovid, Shlomo (Solomon), and others, that "whoever says they comitted a sin is mistaken".
Please understand I'm not attacking you or your understanding. I'm just pointing out that we, people in our generation, have no ability whatsoever to fathom who our ancestors were. Every generation is "lower" than the previous one, and therefore, may find it hard to understand what members of that generation did that seemed wrong, that really isn't.

Illustrating my point:
Take for example, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, one of the most prominent Torah authorities in America not too many years ago. People regarded him as an angel, a holy being that none of us was able to understand. This is only about 20 years ago.
Now go back 200 years, to a person named the 'Vilna Gaon' or the 'Gaon (Genius) from the city of Vilna'. Possibly, the Gaon's single biggest contribution to the Jewish people was his corrective notes on most of our ancient texts, particularly the Talmud. Over the centuries errors had crept into the various texts due primarily to scribal mistakes. The Gaon, with his phenomenal knowledge of the entirety of the Torah literature, was possibly the only individual capable of creating authoritative corrections of these texts. There is almost no ancient Torah text that does not bear the notes of the Gaon. When his name is mentioned in a Yeshiva/Orthodox home, the image of an angel that is conjured in one's mind is underestimated.
Now, go back another 200 years, to a person named R' Yitzchok Luria Ashkenazi, or the Arizal, the greatest kabbalist of all times, according to most people. He set out to explain the most abstruse parts of the kabbalistic literature available at the time, particularly Zohar. His analysis of those texts and the innovations he subsequently taught his disciples were unparalleled. No one today can perceive his greateness, his holiness.
Now travel back in time to the year 1135, when the Rambam was born. He wrote a halachic masterpiece called the Mishnah Torah, a basis to the Jewish code of law. Another one of the Rambam's masterpieces is the Sefer Ha'Mitzvos. While we all know that there are 613 commandments, there is much disagreement as to exactly what they are. In this sefer, the Rambam goes through each and every one of the 613 mitzvos, explaining how and when they apply.
The Rambam also put down 13 basic tenets of Jewish belief called the Yud Gimmel Ikrim (which are printed in most siddurim after the Morning prayer). These 13 axioms represent the very foundations of Jewish belief. He was (and still is, of course,) a name heard in every Yeshiva, a being that few can comprehend.
Now, let's take a giant leap backwards to Moshe Rabeinu, or Moses. I don't think I need to explain who he was. The only, and I mean only human being to ever communicate with God "face to face"! Can you imagine something like that? I know I can't.
Finally, we reach Yehuda. And my final words are these. If people today cannot comprehend who Rav Feinstein was, if they cannot comprehend and fathom what kind of holy figure he was, how on earth can we fathom who was Judah/Yehuda, who was 1,00000000000000000000000 (etc) greater than any person today alive?

Obviously, we just can't understand what the meaning of these people was.

Hope it helped.