Exactly what is the Halachic standing of Crypto-Jews? I know some Portuguese Cryto-Jews whose grandmothers washed their meat with salt and lit candles for Shabbat etc.
Are they considered Jews with a safek?
Are they classified the same as Jewish "seed", like Ethiopians or people whose fathers are Jews but whose mothers are not?
If a Crypto "converts" and gets married, can his/her parents stand under the chupa with him/her?

I once heard a rabbi speak about this issue, and one of his main points was that it was probably better for them to not be classified as Jews since they did have divorces and children of 2nd marriages of mothers which without a proper halachic divorce would result in rampant mamzeres status if they were Jews, where as if they were not Jews, then this is not a problem.

But Rob,
The Reform Judaism is no different (concerning divorce and remarriage) and yet we call them Jews.
Moshe

quote:

Reform Judaism is no different (concerning divorce and remarriage) and yet we call them Jews.

Dear Avi

Its not clear to me that there is no difference...

The premise of my prior post is that it is better to be a ger than a mamzer with respect to marriage options. And thus if one is in doubt as to whether they are Jewish, that can be a benefit to rule out being a mamzer.

By Reform, the usual situation of questioning who is a Jew is whether the mother is a Jew. If the mother is not a Jew, then she cannot produce a mamzer Jew, right?

Does it perhaps happen that if a Jewish couple divorces, even if they were married not in accordance with Jewish law, that they seek an Orthodox Rabbi who is a specialist in the laws of divorce to perform their divorce?

Thus they could protect a child of a subsequent reform marriage from being a mamzer.

Does this address the concern at all?

Our rabbis will perform amazing feats of legal gymnastic to prevent someone being labelled a mamzer. That doesn't mean to do it to start with.
As for the various groups, most of these questions were address after the spanish expulsion when conversos got out many years afterwards. In general, by the third generation formal conversion was required. As for the groups which maintain a non-rabbinical jewish identy like the beta yisrael in India and Ethiopia (interestingly they have the same name), divorce and remarriage was essentially unheard of and to require conversion on this basis is just a chumra, so some do and some don't. However, the bnei menashah which had no Judiasm, karaite or non-rabbinical, are undergoing full conversion.

Rob,
You had said that Cryptos are considered goy in order to protect them from potentially being labeled mamzerim because marriage and divorce was not according to halacha and most likely not well documented.
My response was, how about the Reform Jews who, after divorce, get remarried not according to halacha. In many instances they did not receive a get. Surely they are just as much at risk for being mamzerim. Should we call Reform Jews goy in order to protect them from the mamzer designation?


Aryeh,
There is no question that a conversion is the best way to remove any safek and also maintain "quality control", but my question was really intended for relationship issues. If a Crypto converts that's good, but in Jewish life cycle occassions, such as marriage, are the kin of this converted Cryto considered Jews. An easier way to ask this question is this;
The child of a Jewish father and a goy mother is not a Jew. He converts. Is he halachically related to his father after conversion? If not related, can the father stand under the chupa with his son at marriage?

Avi

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
An easier way to ask this question is this;
The child of a Jewish father and a goy mother is not a Jew. He converts. Is he halachically related to his father after conversion?

Not at all.

quote:

If not related, can the father stand under the chupa with his son at marriage?

Why not? Under my daughter's chuppa in Israel there were standing (pushing around, more like!) 2 video and 1 stills cameramen. None of them was related to us or my son-in-law.

quote:

Should we call Reform Jews goy in order to protect them from the mamzer designation?

A "Crypto Jew" would seem to be someone who for generations is of a family which states that they are of another religion, to which they were forced to convert perhaps, and worship according to the tenets of another religion, yet secretly held some traditions which we can see the Jewish origins of.

It is not known if their matrilineal line is Jewish.

In the other case we are talking about a Jew who comes from a Jewish (maternal) lineage. Only if there is a particular break in the maternal lineage can we say that the particular person is not a Jew. But on the whole I believe that most Jews who are affiliated with the reform movement are Jews, and thus there is no basis to say otherwise.

Furthermore its not clear that the divorce problem is the same. For example for a matter of divorce it could well be that a divorce covered the essential aspects.

A very good friend of mine asked me about this and I sent her to Rabbi to ask. She doesn't want to go though,a s she is embarrassed by the issue. Maybe someone here can help as well: Her mother was a crypto-Jew. Two generations before the mother, the family "converted" to Catholicism due to religious persecution in Russia (ironically, part of my family did the same thing in Gryznia Barak, Russia). Her mother as a young adult realized that they were different, and had many customs that were as those of the Jews, and one thing lead to another, (I don't know all about how she discovered it all) and she returned as a Ba'al T'Shuva. She did not "convert back" in any "official manner" except that she lived observantly from then on. Subsequently she raised the daughter Jewish. Her mother now worships openly in the Jewish community here in Houston, but the daughter (my friend, who is a teenager) does not know if she will have problems when it comes time to marry (she isn't ready yet but plans to be in a year or so to a young Orthodox Jewish man). She asked if she would be required to "convert" even though her mother raised her Jewish. She doesn't want to convert because she says it is like admitting that your whole life is a lie and you haven't been a Jew all these years. On the other hand, if there is a halachic problem, wouldn't the young man be outraged and feel betrayed if she said nothing? I see her point, (how can you not be that which you are?) and I don't know if there will be halachic issues with her Orthodox marriage or not. Can anyone enlighten me so I can tell her something that will hopefully answer her questions? What should she do? Nothing?

And, hypothetically speaking, (as this is not the case inher situation as it stands) what if the man she was going to marry was a Kohein? Would her status be acceptable for that marriage? Obviously converts are not.

Yisroel,
Perhaps I should have been more precise. I meant escorting the bride and groom, not standing under the chupa with bride and groom. Can a Jewish father escort his converted Jewish son whose mother is a goy? While he is halachically a Jew, he is not related to his son.
Avi

Yocheved,

The easiest thing for this young lady to do is convert. It will get rid of all sorts of problems. While this will create new problems, they are minor compared to the problems she would endure because of geyrut.

Sure she may not be able to marry a kohen but half the female population cannot marry kohanim. There is no stigma associated with being unable to marry a kohen.

If she has children in this state and her children "frum up", you can be certain if they want to marry a Satmar, Lubavitch, Hareidi, or anyone in the frum community, they will require a geyrut. So for her and her future children's sake, she should get a geyrut. She can move to Israel and no one would ever know she was a geyr. Halachically, no one is supposed to ask.

It is unfortunate that in some circles there is a stigma for being a geyr. Torah strictly prohibits this. In most of Yiddishkeit, especially the learned ones, being a geyr is not a big deal, especially if one is "ethnically" from Europe. Now, if one is not from Europe and one is dark skinned, some enclaves in Yiddishkeit will question one's Jewishness. Yes, it's true! =o)

Avi

Rob,

Some Cryptos kept a very good tradition for 500 years, marrying only fellow Crypots etc. with a pretty good matrilienal genealogy. I know one who traces her matrilinneal family tree all the way back to 1497. They may not have maintained a rabbinic mesora but they certainly maintained the basics of kashrut, Shabbat, tahorat mishpacha etc. Such Cryptos are clearly Jewish. How many reform Jews do you know who even attempt to wash their meat with salt? These Cryptos do.

Avi

As I said, been there, did this already. We had the same questions after the expulsion from spain. First generation is no problem as they are Jewish no matter what they do. Second generation is accepted but third generation has to convert.
As for being insulted by being asked to convert, get in line. The list is very long. Afterall sometimes people have to convert three times and at the rate we are going maybe even four times. It doesn't hurt (if you are a female) and only takes a few minutes. So life isn't fair. Get over it. Your children don't need your headache.
As for the massive problem of the children of Reform Jews in America, it is a big problem and no one is going to solve it soon. It will just get worse. The Rabbis deal with it on an ad hoc basis as the cases come up and will annul the marriage or other legal gynastics to prevent the child being labelled a mamzer. However, the more cases which come up, the more tragic cases will come up.
At present we have our hands full with the Russian Jews who have the same problems. Again the Rabbinate handles each case separately. One can't say they do a very good job of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
Yisroel,
Perhaps I should have been more precise. I meant escorting the bride and groom, not standing under the chupa with bride and groom. Can a Jewish father escort his converted Jewish son whose mother is a goy? While he is halachically a Jew, he is not related to his son.
Avi

Avi, I don't understand the problem.

quote:

I know one who traces her matrilinneal family tree all the way back to 1497.

Do they also have records of marriages which show that none of her ancestors were children of post-divorce second-marriages of women?

If any of the weddings were performed by a rabbi perhaps that would show a "clear title" until that point.

quote:

She asked if she would be required to "convert" even though her mother raised her Jewish. She doesn't want to convert because she says it is like admitting that your whole life is a lie and you haven't been a Jew all these years.

If she has brothers, then perhaps she has nothing to lose, particularly as you see since her intended is not a Kohein.

Perhaps geirus has less stigma than her calling herself a baal teshuva, in that a ger has a clean slate, and 3 places in Torah where we are told to love the ger.

But a conversion to remove doubt may be different. Does anyone know if one who converts to remove doubt calls themself by the son or daughter of their biological parent either for compassion or honor?

As to her life being a lie, a conversion to remove doubt might connect her to an increased Jewish soul, and perhaps she will feel different? In which case she would know it was necessary.

And perhaps she can find out what would happen if it were later determined that the particular doubt was false, does she get to call herself in some way unlike a ger?

I don't know what her feelings will be other than disappointment as she is a shy person and has said she didn't want to go through a "conversion" because it seemed ridiculous to her, like trying to convert to be female, when she has been one all her life, but now she must prove it, if she is halachically in danger with her impending marriage. So other than that, I will have to ask her and give her all this info. Basically no matter what--it seems the conversion is the best course of action. I agree that if it is necessary, she should handle it now before her children have issues (as well as her new husband). Poor thing. I hope she will do it though.

Rob,
Unlike today, divorces were very rare in the Crypto-Catholic community. There was a big taboo associated with divorce, so it was very rare. And yes there are few with dcumented family trees.

Yocheved,
There is no shame in converting. In her case it's a conversion to remove safek, which is different from a goy conversion. In learned circles it's a very honored status because one is reaffirming one's responsibility to the yoke of Torah. That's a rare opportunity.

MaShlomHa, Rav D'Israeli, I am scheduled to see her tomorrow at work. I will tell her these very words. I think they will be more comforting to her seeing that she won't have such a stigma in her mind as to the status. Reaffirmation is far more honourable sounding. Thanks for the advice. With HaSh-m's help--hopefully she will take care of this immediately.