A new found friend is a Kohen. He married a Conservatively converted shiksa. She has come a long to being a real frumy and now she wants a halachic conversion. Is this possible, since he is a Kohen?
Avi

Nope. She can convert alright, but the law is pretty clear about Kohein marriages and first generation converts.

Yocheved,

It's not quite so simple. On the one hand, she is married and with ketuba...recognized as married within the Jewish community at large. But according to halacha she is not a Jew therefore not married. If she is not married, she can convert, but after conversion she cannot marry her "husband" again.

However, if the Kohane marries her again anyway, it would be a legitimate marriage, I believe. This would be a civil marriage that becomes recognized within the Jewish community. Such a union is recognized by most even though without a formal chupa. He (or his sons) just lose their status as kohanim, since a kohane is forbidded to marrying a geyr.

So my question is, would the rabbonim convert such a woman being that she is technically not married anyway, with the proviso that she cannot marry her husband back?

Avi

B"H

Avi,

My understanding of this is that a Kohen cannot marry a woman who is a convert to Judaism, although a Levite and Israelite may all consummate marriages with such women. Once they are fully converted under Jewish orthodox laws, these women have equal status with all other Jewish women - and, in my opinion, it is an affront to them to be called a "Shiktzah." (A Yiddish idiom for a non-Jewish woman, derived from the Hebrew word, "Sheketz," or "vermin.") Once they are converted (proselytised), they should be afforded all the honour given to other Jewish women.

The problem with a Kohen marrying a convert is that she is assumed to have been lain with by another man, and that she is no longer a virgin. Indeed, the Sages say that a proselyte woman is tantamount to a "zonah," an inn-keeper or a woman who has kept bad company. The word is also translated as "harlot."

The Sages go on to say that even a Jewish woman who has had forbidden connexions with a non-Jewish man is considered a "zonah." (If she had been raped by a non-Jewish man, she is still permitted unto her husband, however. But if her husband was a Kohen, she must be divorced by her husband.) For, according to the Torah, a "zonah" is forbidden unto the priests of Aaron's lineage (Kohanim) - whether she were a Jewish woman by birth, or a convert to Judaism.

If a Kohen were to decide not to abide by these conjugal restrictions, and he went ahead and married a "zonah," that offspring which issues forth from such a union is no longer considered a Kohen, but rather a "Challal" (a profaned priest).

Another question arises about whether or not a conservative conversion can be considered a valid conversion. This is a long discussion in itself. Generally speaking, if such a conversion was officiated over by three Jewish men (Beis Din), and she agreed to adhere to all the tenets of Judaism, and was immersed in a mikveh for the sake of conversion to the Jewish religion, her conversion might actually hold-up as valid. A woman's conversion would have no bearing on her marital status if she were never legally married in the first place. If she were married to a non-Jew, her conversion to Judaism renders her marriage null and void, beginning with her "re-birth" as a Jew. What matters is how she intends to live her life from here on out.

Sincerely,
David

First of all he should make investigations to see if he is actually a Kohen.

That is not as daft as it sounds. I heard of a similar case involving a Kohen and a divorcee. The Rav they went to for advice suggested he check his lineage and sure enough he found out he had been adopted (his adoptive parents never told him) and he wasn't a Kohen at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
Yocheved,

It's not quite so simple.

Yes it is.

quote:

On the one hand, she is married and with ketuba...recognized as married within the Jewish community at large.

She is not married and any "marriage" that exists is not recognised by Torah true Jews.

quote:

However, if the Kohane marries her again anyway, it would be a legitimate marriage, I believe.

Yes, but in that case any Beis Din might well conclude that the conversion was no good in the first place as she converted knowing she was going to marry a Kohen and therefore obviously did not accept all 613. The London Beis Din have decided like that in two well known cases here.

quote:

This would be a civil marriage that becomes recognized within the Jewish community. Such a union is recognized by most even though without a formal chupa. He (or his sons) just lose their status as kohanim, since a kohane is forbidded to marrying a geyr.

Whether or not it is recognised, that wouldn't make any difference to thwe status of the children.

quote:

So my question is, would the rabbonim convert such a woman being that she is technically not married anyway, with the proviso that she cannot marry her husband back?

I don't see why not.

QUOTE: He (or his sons) just lose their status as kohanim,

Exactly my point. SHE can get away with it, but HE will pay a price, unavoidably. Losing one's status as a Kohein is a huge price to pay. It will also affect their children.

Now here is a thought that is a long shot, but the Rav could address-- What if SHE were to do a comprehensive "background check" (as it were) to discover if her direct family line were Jewish. If it is on her mother's side--that may recategorize her as a crypto Jew and therefore her "conversion" mayu only exist to remove safek and therefore she would not be the geyr that she was thought to be. This would preserve both of their dignities and his status as well. I don't know if that would work or not, but it would be something to look into--otherwise this situation looks pretty bleak. It would be aweful if (G-d Forbid) he went through with marrying her after conversion and she changed her mind about the marriage, they got a get and then he is left with an irreparably stained name as defiled, AND doesn't have his wife. OY.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
QUOTE: He (or his sons) just lose their status as kohanim,

Exactly my point. SHE can get away with it, but HE will pay a price, unavoidably. Losing one's status as a Kohein is a huge price to pay. It will also affect their children.

That's because the issur [prohibition] is on him, the Kohen, not to marry a convert.

Yisroel,
Are you saying that if the woman converted and then "remarried" her husband, her conversion would become void, after the fact, because she converted
knowing she would marry a kohen?
Avi

David,

quote:

Once they are fully converted under Jewish orthodox laws, these women have equal status with all other Jewish women - and, in my opinion, it is an affront to them to be called a "Shiktzah." (A Yiddish idiom for a non-Jewish woman, derived from the Hebrew word, "Sheketz," or "vermin.") Once they are converted (proselytised), they should be afforded all the honour given to other Jewish women.

It was not my intent to come across as being derogatory. In our neighborhood the word "shiksa" has a measure of endearment. Further, I was also referring to her Conservative conversion status, which would be considered null by most Torah observant Jews.

Rav Yisroel: Right. So he should think carefully. Sadly, it may be better for him that she doesn't convert, and remain a righteous goy.

Avi:
How funny!! Where I come from the word has precisely the opposite meaning--"shiksa" is used as a derrogatory term to characterize a woman as promiscuous (to say it nicely). Even though it does not (neither definition in colloquial modern speech) actually allign itself with the original meaning of the word. It never ceases to amaze me how different areas have their own vernacular and how words evolve in meaning on a microcosmic level.

quote:

if such a conversion was officiated over by three Jewish men (Beis Din), and she agreed to adhere to all the tenets of Judaism,

Is it not more accurately 3 Jewish men who are kosher witnesses by virtue of being perceived by their local Torah-observant community to be Shomer Shabbos?

And are not two of the tenets to which she must adhere including the laws prohibiting a Kohein to marry a Ger, and another or more prohibiting putting Jewish authority outside of Torah?

quote:

Where I come from the word has precisely the opposite meaning--"shiksa" is used as a derrogatory term to characterize a woman as promiscuous

I recall the word used as a term of "success" in assimilation under the false set of values of those who think that women with physical traits not usually associated with Jewish men (a genetically rare hair color for example among a Jewish population), or who might be expected to (again falsely) think would not find Jewish men attractive... that a man might have a shiksa wife as a trophy to his success in assimilation.

Such a man probably doesn't sing the words of Eishes Chayil on Shabbos dinner.

quote:

quote:
This would be a civil marriage that becomes recognized within the Jewish community. Such a union is recognized by most even though without a formal chupa. He (or his sons) just lose their status as kohanim, since a kohane is forbidded to marrying a geyr.


Whether or not it is recognised, that wouldn't make any difference to thwe status of the children.

I have heard that while a civil marriage (for example performed by a justice of the peace) is recognized by a Beis Din as a marriage requiring a "get" should there be a divorce and the wife's re-marriage (due to Dina HaMalchusa Dina) that a treif wedding performed by a non-rabbi, whom the couple sees as a religious authority, is not recognized as a marriage (since doing so is an afront to Torah).

It is thus not so clear whether such a marriage as posted about would be recognized by a Torah community at all.

quote:

If it is on her mother's side--that may recategorize her as a crypto Jew and therefore her "conversion" mayu only exist to remove safek and therefore she would not be the geyr that she was thought to be.

I believe that in a case where woman undergoes a conversion solely to remove doubt that she is not permitted to marry a Kohein.

quote:

It would be aweful if (G-d Forbid) he went through with marrying her after conversion and she changed her mind about the marriage, they got a get and then he is left with an irreparably stained name as defiled, AND doesn't have his wife. OY.

I believe he gets his kehuna back when he divorces her, but his sons through her cannot ever become kohanim.

Rob,
Surely, if all you need to effect marriage is biya and kosher witnesses, a couple of Jews who begin to live together and procreate, in a frum jewish community, under any guise, would ultimately require a get when they split. I know in Israel some Sephardic rabbis will require a get after a couple that had been living together without chupa splits. This is to remove safek, but it's a get nonetheless.
Avi

Though I'm not in the Inyun, I'll give some avenues (that of course, needs to be agreed to by the Bais Din.

If they hadn't been Frum for generations and they weren't practicing Kohanim, then they may be have lost their Chezkas Kehuna and therefore have a Chazaka of being a regular Jew. I'm not sure of the details, but supposedly Rav Moshe has such a Heter and I know the Rabbis use it.

Also, they can explore the possibility that the Kohane's mother (which might depend how young his mother is) may had have in college something that would make her kids a Challol so that maybe an avenue to look into.

About the conversion, since she needs to accept all the Mitzvos, and if she doesn't agree not to marry any Kohanim, so basically she hadn't accepted all the Mitzvos, so how can she be Migayir?

About the conversion, since she needs to accept all the Mitzvos, and if she doesn't agree not to marry any Kohanim, so basically she hadn't accepted all the Mitzvos, so how can she be Migayir?
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Very good question--