B"H

Rebbe Yisroel,

The statement I made about the conversion classes being jointly operated by conservative and orthodox Rabbis had nothing to do with your article. I was just stating a fact. A Conservative Rabbi in an all conservative "Beis Din," so long as they follow the accepted norms in conducting a conversion, does not necessarily render the conversion invalid.

I will seek to show proof of this.

We all know that the Tzaddukim (Sadducees) had ill-founded beliefs, insomuch that the Talmud strongly libels Yohanan, the high priest (Kohen Gadol), who "served as high priest for eighty years, but in the end, became a Sadducee." (Berakhot 29a)

יוחנן כהן גדול שמש בכהונה גדולה שמנים שנה
ולבסוף נעשה צדוקי

Josephus clarifies this teaching and says that Yohanan the High Priest, who is John Hyrcanus, actually served as high priest for "thirty-one years." (Antiquities, Book XIII, ch. X, vs. 7)Meaning, after having lived for 80 years as a Pharisee, he then became a Sadducee.

The belief of the Sadducees was this: They only held sacred the written law of Moses. They did not believe in life after death, but rather held the opinion that all souls died with their bodies. They did not believe in angels, neither in demons or in evil spirits. Nor was there anything with them called הלכה למשה מסיני - an oral teaching passed down by Moses from Sinai. (see: Antiq., Book XIII, ch. X, vs. 6 and Antiq., Book VIII, ch. I, vs. 4). Obviously, their deviation from mainstream orthodox Judaism was greater than that of our Conservative brothers today!

Yet, despite their unconformity to mainstream Judaism, there were others of this sect who served as high priest, and headed the Sanhedrin. One such person was Ananus b. Ananus (Chanan b. Chanan) who, according to Josephus, was also a Sadducee, and the eldest of the high priests at the time of the temple's destruction in 68 C.E. (Antiquities, Book XX, ch. IX, vs. 1)
Not only do we find him, but unnamed others as well - many of whom serving as judges in the "Batei Din." Thus, writes Josephus about the Sadducees: "...when they become magistrates (דיינים), as they are unwillingly and by force sometimes obliged to be, they addict themselves to the notions of the Pharisees, because the multitude would not otherwise bear them." (Antiquities, ibid.)

So, it is the same with the Conservative Rabbis, although they might bear warped and unconventional views of tradition and halacha, yet if they conform just enough to conduct a conversion after the prescribed manner of halacha, their conversion would hold up as valid. Therefore it was that I said in one of my earlier posts, "if there were three Jewish men who immersed the woman in a mikveh, and she had agreed in mind to accept all the tenets of Judaism, her conversion might be viewed as valid."

Sincerely,
David

R' David, as a Sefardi (Temani, I believe) you are in the fortunate position of not having to encounter so called "Progressive" communities. The Reform/Conservative movements never touched the Sefardi communities. Whilst there may be greatly differing standards of practice, Sefardim abide by the same belief system.

As an aside, my son pointed out something rather wonderful about the Eidot Mizrach Shul that my son-in-law davens in. There you will find chareidim with peyot, tzitzit down to their knees, etc., dati le'umi Jews, right down to those who come to Shul in a sweatshirt and jeans. But they are all part of one community and there is a definite feeling of Ahavat Yisrael between them all.

We Ashkenazim, on the other hand, have had to cope with the inroads made by the Reform/Conservative. From our perspective, and definitely according to our Poskim, their marriages, divorces and conversions are not considered halachically kasher. It's not a question of the procedures undertaken; they may well be exactly the same as those in Orthodox Shuls or Batei Din. It's more a question of the "Rabbis" who administer them. They do not believe in Torah Min HaShamayim in the way that is required by (say) the Rambams Principles and so they are considered disqualified for these purposes.

The following is a Teshuva of R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l which is very noge'ah to the case brought at the beginning of this thread:

שו"ת אגרות משה חלק יו"ד ג סימן קז

גיורת שנתגיירה אצל דייני קאנסערוואטיוון /קונסרבטיבים/ ונשאת לכהן בע"ה ח' כסלו תשל"ז מע"כ ידידי הרה"ג מוהר"ר חיים זאב הלוי ציטראן שליט"א, רב בבית חב"ד בבערקלי קאליפארניא.

הנה האיש והאשה שהתחילו להתקרב ליהדות ולשמירת דיני התורה ונודע כי האשה היא נכרית שנתגיירה אצל דייני קאנסערוואטיוון והסכימה להתגייר עתה עוד הפעם לפני ב"ד כשר אבל בעלה הוא כהן, אין שום חלוק בגרות הראשונה שהיה לפני נישואיה דא"כ הדין הוא דיוציאה בגט, שלכן אם הוא כהן כשר כפי שכותב כתר"ה שבא ממשפחה חרדית צריך לגרשה אבל כדאי לחקור עוד הפעם מהמשפחה לידע יחוסה לכהונה כי במדינה זו בעירות הרחוקות צריך בדיקה, ונמצא ששתי שאלות השניות אין נוגעין למעשה זו לדינא, אבל מ"מ אכתוב מאחר שנוגע זה להאשה אם רוצה להתגייר באמת כי אף אם הרבנים היו שומרי שבת ודאי לא הקפידו על קבלת מצות כדחזינן שלא קבלה המצות וגיירוה, שא"כ ודאי צריכה גרות אחרת לפני ב"ד כשר בקבלת מצות שהם כל המצות וכשלא תרצה לקבל מצות איסורה להנשא לכהן אינה גיורת כדאיתא בבכורות דף ל' דבלא קבל אפילו דבר אחד אינו גר. והנני ידידו מוקירו מברכו בהצלחה במעשיו לשם שמים, משה פיינשטיין.

Elsewhere R' Moshe writes about Conservative Rabbis that שחזקתם שהם כופרים בעיקרי האמונה

And the Shulchan Aruch (YD 268:3) writes that the Kabalat HaMitzvot must be in front of 3 Kasher Dayanim and that this is Me'akeiv.

Kol Tuv.

B"H

Rebbe Yisroel,

Your views reflect your religious upbringing. I would agree with you, however, that the Reform Movement poses the greatest threat and danger to mainstream Judaism. For if they allow a woman who is coming off her monthly menstrual cycle (Niddah) to immerse in a bath tub alone, and for women to serve as Rabbis in a shul, donning a tallis, and to allow same-sex marriages, etc., and the many other anomalies which we see and find with them, we at length cancel out many laws and are no longer observing Jewish law.

The section of the Shulchan Arukh that you quoted, requiring "fit judges" may be a thing in question. Are they "unfit" simply for entertaining views that do not conform with the norm? The ancient custom in Israel obviously showed that this is not the case. Rather, they must be "honest, shun gambling, avoid eating in public places (market places)," etc. as we find explicitly stated in our Talmud. Furthermore, in the area of halacha, if they should not abrogate from the norm when rendering an halachic decision, this too is commendable. Yoseph Hakohen (Josephus) says that the Sadducees were usually very strict when judging others in court. I see a very close similarity between the Sadducees at the time of the temple and the Conservative movement of today, although I am not an expert in this matter.

Sincerely,
David

David--

Does Talmud Torah still require righteous women not to eat in public places? Including today's kosher restaurants with appropriate company?

quote:

"fit judges" may be a thing in question. Are they "unfit" simply for entertaining views that do not conform with the norm? The ancient custom in Israel obviously showed that this is not the case. Rather, they must be "honest, shun gambling, avoid eating in public places (market places)," etc. as we find explicitly stated in our Talmud.

It has been my understanding that the rule for a Beis Din is that the 3 men must be perceived by their [local Orthodox] community to be Shomer Shabbos - and this I know to be the standard for kashrus on food, as to what food is fit to eat; and this is based on the rule for who can be a witness to Beis Din.

Are you saying that the standard for who can form a Beis Din is different?

Granted that for an ad-hoc Beis Din by Rosh HaShana to annul vows also requires some specific knowledge of the applicable laws, for a conversion Beis Din it surely requires the head of the Beis Din to be very familiar with all the specific laws.

But do you agree that they must first meet the lesser standard of a kosher witness?

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
David--

Does Talmud Torah still require righteous women not to eat in public places? Including today's kosher restaurants with appropriate company?

I think that the meaning of "public places" here is literally in the street. From my experience, even the most chareidi of women eat in restaurants.

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Rebbe Yisroel,

Your views reflect your religious upbringing. I would agree with you, however, that the Reform Movement poses the greatest threat and danger to mainstream Judaism. For if they allow a woman who is coming off her monthly menstrual cycle (Niddah) to immerse in a bath tub alone, and for women to serve as Rabbis in a shul, donning a tallis, and to allow same-sex marriages, etc., and the many other anomalies which we see and find with them, we at length cancel out many laws and are no longer observing Jewish law.

R' David, that's just what the Conservative Rabbis are doing, although possibly to a lesser extent.

quote:

The section of the Shulchan Arukh that you quoted, requiring "fit judges" may be a thing in question. Are they "unfit" simply for entertaining views that do not conform with the norm?

They are unfit because they do not believe in Torah Min HaShomayim. As R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l wrote, "The are kofrim b'ikar [deny the basic tenets of our Faith]."

quote:

Yoseph Hakohen (Josephus) says that the Sadducees were usually very strict when judging others in court. I see a very close similarity between the Sadducees at the time of the temple and the Conservative movement of today, although I am not an expert in this matter.

I don't know if the Sadducees were accepted as Dayanim, but there is a difference in that they at least accepted the Divine authority of the written Torah.

I would be very surprised indeed to hear of any Posek accepting a Conservative conversion. I tried to see if I could find anything on the subject in R' Ovadiah Yosef's Yabia Omer and Yechaveh Da'at, but he makes no reference to Conservative conversions, which is probably not surprising as it is, as I wrote before, more an Ashkenazi problem.

Kol Tuv.

Rav Yisroel--

Whew!

Quote ". Rather, they must be "honest, shun gambling, avoid eating in public places (market places)," etc. as we find explicitly stated in our Talmud. "

Reb Dovid,

If shunning gambling, which is brought in the Mishna in Sanhedrin 24b, is Pasul to be a judge or witness (RAshi says there since it says in the Torah a Rasha cannot say witness and Kal V'Chomer to being a Judge) since it's a rabbinic prohibition, of course those that are prohibited from the Torah, as Tosfos points out over there (that the Mishna is only listing those that transgress Rabanan prohibition.

The Gemara is explicit that those that eat Nevaila in order to fulfill their desires are PAsul also. See the Sugya in 27a.

I don't see why Conservatives, going against Halacha norms, which basically means that they go against Halacha, should be any Shaila that they're completely Pasul for being a Judge and witness.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I don't see why Conservatives, going against Halacha norms, which basically means that they go against Halacha, should be any Shaila that they're completely Pasul for being a Judge and witness.

Rav Chaim, that's why I made it absolutely clear with regard to the Conservative Rabbis officiating over a conversion, saying that "in the area of halacha, if they should not abrogate from the norm when rendering an halachic decision, this too is commendable."

As for Rebbe Yisroel's remarks, "They (the Conservative Rabbis) are unfit because they do not believe in Torah Min HaShomayim. As R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l wrote, 'They are kofrim b'ikar' (i.e. deny the basic tenets of our Faith)," are you saying by this that the Conservative Jews do not believe the Torah was given to us by G-d? Is there not anyone amongst them who observes the Shabbos? If so, this is all new to me. I admit that I do not know much about the Conservative Movement, but I will check this out with them, whether it be true.

At any rate, according to Yoseph Hakohen, the Tzaddukim (Sadducees) did not believe in any oral teaching deivered by Moses from Sinai (הלכה למשה מסיני). Possibly, you can say here that they "deny the basic tenets of our Faith." Yet, were they allowed to serve as judges in the courts of Jewish law, and were very strict at judging offenders. This says alot! I think we should reconsider our views about what makes a judge "pasul" (disqualified) when rendering halachic decisions. Honesty and shamefacedness should be the criterea that we look for.

Again, I am no expert in these matters. Conservative conversions seems to me to be a "grey area," and should be avoided as a first resort. Still, as far as conservative conversions are concerned, I would be wary about rejecting a man's "Jewishness" simply because he had been converted by Conservative Rabbis. He may actually be a bona fide Jew, and you would be guilty of mistreating or abusing your fellow Jew by excluding him from a "minyan," etc. This has the colourings of "שנאת חינם" in my opinion.



Sincerely,
David

quote:

I would be wary about rejecting a man's "Jewishness" simply because he had been converted by Conservative Rabbis. He may actually be a bona fide Jew, and you would be guilty of mistreating or abusing your fellow Jew by excluding him from a "minyan," etc. This has the colourings of "שנאת חינם" in my opinion.

So he's possibly a Jew. He can always undergo a halachic conversion to remove doubt if it bothers him that Jews don't want to risk transgressing marrying a goy, or reciting kadish without a minyan. Doesn't seem baseless, and doesn't seem like hatred, either.

Which would mistreat a goy worse - to treat him as a Jew, and cause him to trespass into Hashem's intimate relationship with the Jewish people? or to make it clear that he cannot be counted in a minyan of Jews?

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:]

As for Rebbe Yisroel's remarks, "They (the Conservative Rabbis) are unfit because they do not believe in Torah Min HaShomayim. As R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l wrote, 'They are kofrim b'ikar' (i.e. deny the basic tenets of our Faith)," are you saying by this that the Conservative Jews do not believe the Torah was given to us by G-d?

R' David, they do not believe it was dictated word for word by G-d to Moshe, merely "divinely inspired".

Have a look at this Wikipedia entry - Revelation in Conservative Judaism

In agreement with traditional Judaism, Conservative Judaism holds that God inspired prophets to write the Torah (five books of Moses) and the Hebrew Bible. However, for theological reasons most Conservative Jews reject the traditional Jewish idea that God dictated the words of the Torah to Moses at Mount Sinai in a verbal revelation. Divine revelation, however, while held to be real, is generally believed to be non-verbal -- that is, the revelation did not include the particular words of the divine texts. Conservative Judaism allows its adherents to hold to a wide array of views on the subject of revelation.

quote:

Is there not anyone amongst them who observes the Shabbos?

Of course they do; but that's not the point. How can a Beis Din of Rabbis who don't accept each and every Halacha in the Torah be acceptable for the purposes of Kabalat Ol Mitzvot by the convert?

quote:

If so, this is all new to me. I admit that I do not know much about the Conservative Movement, but I will check this out with them, whether it be true.

Please do, my friend. You will be surprised and probably disappointed.

quote:

Again, I am no expert in these matters. Conservative conversions seems to me to be a "grey area," and should be avoided as a first resort. Still, as far as conservative conversions are concerned, I would be wary about rejecting a man's "Jewishness" simply because he had been converted by Conservative Rabbis. He may actually be a bona fide Jew, and you would be guilty of mistreating or abusing your fellow Jew by excluding him from a "minyan," etc. This has the colourings of "שנאת חינם" in my opinion.

There is no "grey area" here, I'm afraid. Both as a Lechat'chila and as a Bedi'advad their conversions are not accepted by Orthodox Batei Din.

Kol Tuv.

David,

A few years ago I met a woman who had had a Conservative conversion. She was very proud of it and had fancy certificate etc. We started discussing this very subject. And she insisted that her Conversion was "valid". Then I asked her who the witnesses were. She mentioned the people. Only one of them was a rabbi. I asked her if any of them drove on Shabbat, and she said "yes".

David, would a person who drives on Shabbat be a kosher witness in your beit din?

You say;

"Again, I am no expert in these matters. Conservative conversions seems to me to be a "grey area," and should be avoided as a first resort. Still, as far as conservative conversions are concerned, I would be wary about rejecting a man's "Jewishness" simply because he had been converted by Conservative Rabbis. He may actually be a bona fide Jew, and you would be guilty of mistreating or abusing your fellow Jew by excluding him from a "minyan," etc. This has the colourings of "שנאת חינם" in my opinion."

David, even if what you say above were true, the problem with the Conservative conversions is that there would always be a safek. And, the only way to remove that safek is by re-Conversion.

Avi

ROB:

GREAT QUESTION.

Here, here on all you just posted, Rav Yisroel.

FYI to any out there, BE CAREFUL with Wikipedia! There are many errors in it. They are always open to revision, and are still a decent avenue of quick info., but be careful to double check any/everything you read there. There are more than a few errors, and even biases. For this reason, I do not allow any of my students to use Wikipedia on their bibliographies! Like anything else, I suppose, just because something is in writing, doesn't make it so.

(Obviously Rav's aforementioned example is NOT one of those erroneous incidents--this is simply an experiencial cautionary comment)

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:

David, even if what you say above were true, the problem with the Conservative conversions is that there would always be a safek. And, the only way to remove that safek is by re-Conversion.

Avi

Precisely. I was going to say that I know many Conservatives whom behave precisely as the Orthodox do (outwardly). One would have to question them closely to find the differences (or simply as them where they attend Shul). I know still others who are Conservatives who I would plant firmly in the Reform camp. This may be what David is hinting at, for in this way, I could see "grey area" between a Conservative who behaves outwardly as an Orthodox or MO and a "dyed in the wool" Orthodox.

But then the question is where is the line in HaSh-m's mind? The issue for me is a closed one. As Avi put it, there would always be doubt, for if they are "so Orthodox-ish" then why did they leave in the first place? This tells me instantly that they do not take upon themselves the entire mantle of Torah. Immediate red flags are raised, and to my mind, that means they are on the "other side" of the line--even in HaSh-m's mind. But that is my opinion.

Another question which is raised in my mind (please do pardon me for jumping in here--I realize I wasn't addressed) is also related to the Kohein issue. A Kohein is not permitted to marry a convert (or the daughter of one I believe (?) So what about Ba'al Teshuvahs whom were originally from Conservative Jewish families and "re-converted" strictly for the issue of the removal of safek?? Are they permitted to marry a Kohein? Is this a simple "NO" or is it judged case by case?

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
Another question which is raised in my mind (please do pardon me for jumping in here--I realize I wasn't addressed) is also related to the Kohein issue. A Kohein is not permitted to marry a convert (or the daughter of one I believe (?) So what about Ba'al Teshuvahs whom were originally from Conservative Jewish families and "re-converted" strictly for the issue of the removal of safek?? Are they permitted to marry a Kohein? Is this a simple "NO" or is it judged case by case?

Yocheved, I don't know that such conversions would be deemed to because of a safek. As I understand it, the person would not be considered Jewish at all before the Orthodox conversion.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
Here, here on all you just posted, Rav Yisroel.

FYI to any out there, BE CAREFUL with Wikipedia! There are many errors in it. They are always open to revision, and are still a decent avenue of quick info., but be careful to double check any/everything you read there. There are more than a few errors, and even biases. For this reason, I do not allow any of my students to use Wikipedia on their bibliographies! Like anything else, I suppose, just because something is in writing, doesn't make it so.

(Obviously Rav's aforementioned example is NOT one of those erroneous incidents--this is simply an experiencial cautionary comment)

Your point is well made, but it happens in this case that what they write is accurate.

I see--so it is a simple "NO"

Quote "At any rate, according to Yoseph Hakohen, the Tzaddukim (Sadducees) did not believe in any oral teaching delivered by Moses from Sinai (הלכה למשה מסיני). Possibly, you can say here that they "deny the basic tenets of our Faith." Yet, were they allowed to serve as judges in the courts of Jewish law"

Tzidukim were never accepted as Kosher judges. I don't know where you get that they were held as Kosher? They did have their own judges and they ruled under where they had jurisdiction, but it was never sanctioned by the Chachamim.

Of course conservatives "keep" Shabbos. In the form of whatever they want goes. There is no trying to do it the right way.