I have heard it said that the composition of Birchat Hamazon (Grace after meals) is attributed thus. Moses wrote the first bracha as a result of the miracle of the man (manna), Joshua wrote the second bracha in response to the conquering of Israel and the chance to rely on its natural and man-made harvest, and King Solomon wrote the third bracha after the buiding of the Beit Hamikdosh (TEmple). The rest of the brachot were added by the Anshei Knesset Hagedolah afterwards.

However, looking at the composition of the brachot, I noticed that whereas the first bracha does praise HaShem for being the provider of food, it is only in the second bracha that HaSehm is also praised for bringing us out of Egypt, the mitzva of circumcision, the Torah that HE has given, as well as for providing food.

My question is twofold. First, wouldn't it have been appropriate for Moshe to have included in his (first) bracha what is contained in the second bracha, so why didn't he? Second, I do not understand the reference to "your covenant that you sealed in our flesh" (i.e. circumcision) in the middle of Birchat Hamazon.

1. You can't ask questions from a midrash. Nothing stopping you from making a vort.
2. The Anshei kennesset hagol made up the whole nusach. It goes something like Moshe, Joshua and Solomen composed their prayer (or Avraham, Yitchak and Yaakov) but it was forgotten and the anshei kennesset hagol had to reformulate it. Similar logic for the actual formulation of the prayers at the time of the mishneh.
3. The mention of the brit milah on our flesh raises a halachic problem discussed by the tosephot. How can women say it? Similarly how can converts say the formula when they brought the omer that this was the land of our fathers. (One opinion is that they brought the omer without the declaration.) The tosephot don't really give an explanation just that if that was the formula of the bircat hamazon established to be said, then everyone says it collectively.

Aryeh Shore

there is a mitzvah after you have eaten your fill you shall bless. thus Moshe recited the first blessing however Moshe doesn't say the second blessing because he did not, at all benefit from Eretz Israel produce as it was with Yhoshoa when he instituted the second blessing.

as for the second question the milah is because this is the sign of the Coventent between HaShem and Avrham that Ertz Israel belongs to him and his decendest (Israel) for all times. and it is because of this that we recite the blessing for Ertz Israel.

if one looks at Birchat HaMazon and that of Tzur Mishlo they both fullfills the requirement of grace after meals. in essence if one mentions all 4 things one fullfills their obligation:
1) sustenances
2) Eretz
3) Jerusalem
4) who is good and does good.

I was discussing prior to Nov 25 with another Jew about how we should look at the US custom of Thanksgiving.

My position was that just like Avraham Avinu meritoriously encouraged goyim to thank Hashem for the food they had eaten, we should look at this as a national day of good intention to recite Bircas Hamazon.

The other person's position looked upon the occasion as far more goyish.

For me, my rabbi once told me that if its a convenient time to enjoy the company of family who have less busy schedules than their normal weeks, and even if we happen to like to eat foods that are on sale at this time of year, there is no problem.

My question for this thread:

Do we know what exactly Avraham encouraged guests at his inn to recite?

Thanksgiving

The pilgrims thought they were the true jews who found the promised land (why does everyone want to be jews?). They wanted to follow the bible (that is the five books of moses) and to celebrate sukkot, the holiday of thanksgiving. So one hand, it is a religious holiday and we should not celebrate it. (Since the origin is from the bible and not pagan, no reason why the non-jews shouldn't celebrate it.)
On the other hand, since nobody knows about it, it would be like the Darchei Moshe's comments on using the Norse and Roman gods names for the days of the week and the months. The origin has already been forgotten from humanity so it is neutral. Afterall the Jews have no problem using the names of the babylonian gods for their months. I mean one can't argue that Tamuz is not the name of an avodah zarah. Yermiyahu clearly identifies it as such.
I see we are skipping the discussion of how jews can eat turkey this year.

Aryeh Shore

quote:

Originally posted by Mack K:

if one looks at Birchat HaMazon and that of Tzur Mishlo they both fullfills the requirement of grace after meals. in essence if one mentions all 4 things one fullfills their obligation:
1) sustenances
2) Eretz
3) Jerusalem
4) who is good and does good.

The Tzur Meshelu was intended to be recited after every meal. It has nothing in particular to do with shabbat but found its way into the Shabbat Zmirot section.

A.S.

Quote "Second, I do not understand the reference to "your covenant that you sealed in our flesh" (i.e. circumcision) in the middle of Birchat Hamazon"

See Rashi at the end of Brachos 48b that because of the Zchus of Torah and Bris we inherited the land.

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
I see we are skipping the discussion of how jews can eat turkey this year.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you have a Kabbala for turkey being kosher.

yes laurence shore your completely right that long ago Tzu Mishlo was recite as a grace after meal. I make mention of it because we were dealing with the second question which was dealing with circumcision.

i first explain somewhat the concept of why we make mention of it. then, mention of Tzur Mishlo because it doesn't make mention of circumcision but it none the less talk about Israel in the second bracha.


which is why after all that i listed the four requirement for one to fullfil their grace after meal. as well to show there is little problem with women reciting grace without making mention of circumcision.

your right it has nothing to do with Shabbat why it is there I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
Thanksgiving

The pilgrims thought they were the true jews who found the promised land (why does everyone want to be jews?).

Many of them follow "if you can't join 'em, then beat 'em".

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
I see we are skipping the discussion of how jews can eat turkey this year.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you have a Kabbala for turkey being kosher.

There are two possibilities:
1. The cherokee indians are really the ten lost tribes.
2. If your grandfather ate turkey, you have a kabballah

Otherwise there can't be a kabballah to eat turkey.

AS

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
I see we are skipping the discussion of how jews can eat turkey this year.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you have a Kabbala for turkey being kosher.

What's the problem with eating turkey this year?

Dear people,

Nothing special this year. Just that every year around thanksgiving, the question of how jews can eat turkey without a kaballah comes up.
The story goes like this, Columbus discovered America and thought it was India, so he called them indians. The bird which was brought to England was called Indian Hen (still called this today in modern hebrew; some people thought it came from Turkey so they called it turkey but that is another story). When it got to Poland they called it Indianischer Henn. They said, well that means the jews in Bombey have a tradition to eat it, so it must be OK. The Shoel oomashiv points out the lack of halachic logic in this approach and suggests that the turkey reached Europe and was accepted before the pesak of the ramah that we need a kabballah became widely known.

As for what birkat hamzon the angels said after eating with avraham, since they did the kos habracha which is from the rabbis, they presumably said the full birkat hamazon with the four brachot. I am not familiar with a midrash that Avraham fed them so that they would give thanks to hashem. Although it is asked how they could eat milk and meat together, I don't see anyone asking how they could say the birkat hamazon when the midrash says that weren't served any bread.

Aryeh Shore

quote:

I am not familiar with a midrash that Avraham fed them so that they would give thanks to hashem.

When I mentioned this point it was in reference to the passuk that real human beings ate at Avraham's inn which was at the cross roads with Ai on one side and Beer Sheva (? or Beis Lechem?) on the other. The story around it I recall is that after they had eaten their fill and wanted to thank their hosts Avraham would say to thank Hashem who provides all the food, or otherwise they could perhaps pay a bill... and thus they rather chose to recite a prayer of thanks, and in this way Avraham is credited with spreading knowledge of Hashem.

quote:

I don't see anyone asking how they could say the birkat hamazon when the midrash says that weren't served any bread.

Perhaps despite there not being bread, they were presented with 3 pieces of pizza each from the start (a miracle since 3 angels with 3 pieces per angel would be a 9-slice pizza!) and thus they were permitted to recite Bircas Hamazon given the intention to eat a meal upon this quantity of non-bread baked goods?

Huh??? Where does it say that they were served Pizza???

Actually our new discovery for next Purim, courtesy my family at our Shabbos table, is that they were served matzah pizza - and I think some boxes of matzah do have 9 loafs per box.

But this raises 2 problems... each loaf of matzah requires washing and bircas hamazon.

And the gebrocht question early will make up for the delay in asking the Turkey question ;-)

1. Stay away from matzeh pizza. I have never tasted any that was edible.
2. If they said birkat hamzon and didn't eat bread, then they must have eaten pizza. I know this because at my yeshiva pizza place they had a pesack din on the wall, that one pizza is mezonot and two pizzas is homotzeh.
3. Now why should we eat tongue on pesach?

Aryeh Shore

Aryeh;
I'm sorry, I missed the tongue bit...on pesach.