With regrads to the Biblical commandments there is much written as to whats qualifies as a commandments (from the 613) and what not. Is there similar method with regards to Rabbinic law, for those who propose there are seven, and what would the qualification be?

Yomtov,
Isn't there a correlation between the positive mitzvot and the number of the bones of the body? Yocheved

B"H

Yomtov, Shalom u'vrachah!

Not very long ago, I had a discussion about this subject with a certain Chabadnik friend of mine from Betar-Ilit (Israel).

If I might first preface by saying, the traditional "seven rabbinic commandments," as they are called, are:

1) The commandment to say the Hallel.
2) The commandment to read Megillas Esther.
3) The commandment to light eight Chanukka candles.
4) The commandment to light Shabbos candles.
5) The commandment to wash our hands before eating bread.
6) The commandment to bless over anything by which pleasure/enjoyment is derived.
7) The commandment to extend one's Shabbos domain (Heb. "eruvin")

These seven commandments have been extensively discussed in several books, one of the most notable of which being, "Keter Ha-Mitzvos Hasholem," which treats on the 613 commandments taken from the Torah, and the above mentioned seven rabbinic commandments.

When I discussed this subject with my friend, I posed a serious question to him, about which there was no answer.

I showed him an ancient Midrash (Midrash Rabba, Ruth Rabba, 4:7) that says three things were decreed by the terrestrial court, and had the full agreement and backing of the celestial court (in heaven). Namely: Saluting a man by using G-d's name (Ado-nai); Reading the Megillas Esther at its appointed season; and separating tithes in our day, although it be only a rabbinic enactment.

My question to him was, "Why wasn't the rabbinic commandment to separate tithes included in the traditional seven rabbinic commandments?" "Obviously," I said, "the Midrash has given it equal importance as that of reading the Megillas Esther at its appointed time!"

My friend had no answer.

I left the discussion with a sense that the "seven commandments" were not meant to be exhaustive, but were only meant to stress a certain idea of Rabbinic authority. That is, that they have the authority to make laws binding. As it is written: "All that which the Rabbis have enacted carries with it the full force and validity of the Law." (Tractate Pesachim 30b)
כל דתקון רבנן כעין דאורייתא תקון

quote:

My question to him was, "Why wasn't the rabbinic commandment to separate tithes included in the traditional seven rabbinic commandments?" "Obviously," I said, "the Midrash has given it equal importance as that of reading the Megillas Esther at its appointed time!"

R' David,

Possibly you could say that the 7 Rabbinic Mitzvos were original Mitzvos, whereas separating tithes is based on the Torah Mitzva to separate tithes.

B"H

Rebbe Yisroel,

Good rationalisation. However, if that were the case, what would we say about "The commandment to bless over anything by which pleasure/enjoyment is derived?" Are not these, too, based on the Torah Mitzva to make a blessing after eating a meal and being satisfied therefrom? How can we say there is anything "original" about making a blessing over something that someone has enjoyed?

David

R' David,

Birchos HaNehenin [Blessings over that which one derives a benefit] are recited BEFORE the eating or smelling etc. Whilst the idea may well be based on Birchos HaMazon, it is not such a direct connection as separating Teruma.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
R' David,

Birchos HaNehenin [Blessings over that which one derives a benefit] are recited BEFORE the eating or smelling etc. Whilst the idea may well be based on Birchos HaMazon, it is not such a direct connection as separating Teruma.

Rebbe Yisroel,

That is true about the blessings that come before enjoying a thing, but what will we say about the blessings that come after enjoying a thing?

Still, we do find an example in the Prophets from which the Rabbis inferred that a blessing should be made before doing a certain thing. It is the blessing that we make before reading from the Scroll of the Law (Torah). The verse from which they learned this is:
כי שם יי' אקרא, הבו גודל לאלהינו

"For the name of the Lo-rd I shall call-out; Ascribe greatness unto our G-d."

It is therefore implied by this verse that the rabbinic enactment to make blessings before doing a certain thing, is not really so original afterall.

David

B"H

Rebbe Yisroel,

One of the friends of the GY has sent me this private message. I have his permission to publish it here.

As you can see, he says some of the things that you have said. My only qualm about this, is why make the distinction between rabbinic commandments that are an extension of biblical commandments, and those which are not?
Here are his words:

"Hi. I saw your post and question about the seven rabbinic decrees on Global Yeshiva. You might want to tell your Chabad friend to check the Chabad Rabbi's work "Lekutei Sichos," volume 21, page 401, where he'll find a clear answer to your question. He quotes (although I am not sure from where) that counted in the 7 decrees are only those mitzvos which we make a bracha over, and which are positive, and not merely an extension of what the Torah says. Hence, mayser (The commandment to separate tithes), at least nowadays, is an extension of the biblical commandment of mayser and not included in the original seven.

This obviously doesn't mean that it's less important. Nevertheless, it doesn't have the special qualifications of being numbered amongst the seven; similar to those things which are important, but which are not included amongst the 613 commandments because they do not meet the qualifications.

I hope this helps."

So far his words.
My argument, here, would be this. If the Torah has made the giving of Tithes contingent upon all the people of Israel dwelling in their own land (without colonies abroad), the rabbinic enactment to separate tithes is still a novelty. What makes it different from the other enactments?

I'd like to enlarge this subject if i may.
ותנן שבת: לא יצא האיש בסנדל המסומר ולא ביחיד בזמן שאין ברגלו מכה ולא בתפילין
קהתי: לאחר שנימנו במשנה הקןדמת תכשיטי אשה שאסור לאשה לצאת בשבת משום גזירת חכמים כמו שבארנו שם באה משנתמו לפרט דברים בהם בשבת משום גזירה כפי שנבאר במשנה

The sages placed a fence around the Torah. Tefillen should not be viewed as external types of male jewlery. For on Shabbot its forbidden to transport items from a private place to a public place and its reverse. However if a man stands in awe of His Creator then wearing tefillen like blowing the shofar on shabbot on Rosh HaShannah, a person has permission; the entire purpose of Shabbot rests upon working upon &/or dedicationg one's middot. Just as the New Year judges a mans' commitment to cut and renew ones' brit relationship with the Elokim, so too if a person stands in awe of Elokim then obviously a person can place tefillen on shabbot and blow the shofar on shabbot. Torah has great depth. Its not a halachically cut and dried issue. The given conditions of a society influence and shape how a sage can interpret the intent of Moshe our Teacher through the generations. During galut, codifying the Torah greatly assisted and aided unto the survival of Jewry and our attempt to live within barbaric lands and cannibals; the europeans ate the flesh of my people with jealous envy and blood libel slanders. Establishing a Torah constitutionally ruled Jewish State requires a systematic logic of interpreting the intent of the Framer to meet the needs of the current generation. As Jews in Israel should educate their children away from a ghetto mentality so too Jewry's relationship with the great codes of Jewish law requires a re-evaluation &/or emphasis.
הלכה ב: יוצאין בתפילין ערב שבת עם חשיכה ואין יוצאין בסנדל מסומר ערב שבת עם חשיכה מה בין זה לזה זה דרכו לחלוץ וזה אין דרכו לחלוץ
רמב''מ: מובר לצאת בתפילין ערב שבת עם חשיכה הואיל וחייב אדם למשמש בתפילין בכל עת אינו שוכחן שכח ויצא בהן לרשות הרבים ונזכר שיש לו תפילין בראשו מכסה את ראשו עד שמגיע לביתו או לבית המדרש

The dispute between the Sages and R. Akiva distinguishes between causally going from place to place and intentionally using the Tefillen to arouse the soul to keep the brit.

ותנן עירובין: המוצא תפילין מכניסן זוג זוג ר''ג אומר שנים שנים בד''א בישנות שבל בחדשות פטור אבל אסור
גמ צה: והכא בשבת זמן תפילין קמיפלגי דת''ק סבר שבת זמן תפילין הוא ורבן גמליאל סבר שבת לאו זמן תפילין

The dispute according to this, whether tefillen come in the classification of jewelry. If tefillen comes in the catigory as jewelry then it has both common and sacred attributes. But if its not jewelry then it only has sacred attributes. Do sacred attributes require kavvannah? When tying the ציצית, for example,a person should have in mind the brit Avot. If everyone views that the general catagory of jewelry includes tefillen does then time oriented positive commandments as another general catagory also include tefillen?

גמ ואיבעית אימא דכ''ע שבת זמן תפילין הוא והכא במצות צריכות כוונה קמיפלגי ת''ק סבר לצאת בעי כוונה ורבן גמליאל סבר לא בעי כוונה

Rashi reverses the ruling but fails to bring a proof from another gemarah. Therefore it seems to me its easier to say that both Rabban Gamliel and Rabbi HaNassi hold that tefillen do not come into the classification of time oriented commandments. The distinciton, that general commandments do not require kavvannah while the time oriented positive commandments require kavvannah -this being another subject of dispute.
If all commandments require kavvannah and ציצית assists a person to remember the commandments. And ציצית require the kavvannah of recalling to mind the oath brit that the Avot cut with the Elokim. Then all the commandments should cause a person to remember the oath/brit cut by the Avot. But if non time oriented positive commandments do not require kavvannah then what distinguishes a commandment from external jewelry of fashion? Popular customs have no Divine commandment. If tefillen the general catagory of jewelry contain, and tefillen is a commandment directly from the Torah, halacha which the sages logically derive - what relationship does it share with jewelry?
During the middle ages of the rulership of the narrow eye jealousy envy and slander, where Jews by law could not own land nor rule over non bnai brit slaves unto the 13 middot of tumah, there existed a strong pull among our people to codify the halachah as found in the Sha's. Establishing a "cenotaph" of halachic religious authority changed the emphasis of faith from ruling the oath dedicated lands with justice to abiding by the fixed religious rituals that existed from the times of the Talmud.

shabbot shalom
with respect,
moshe

B"H

Moshe,

A very nice sermon. But what does all this have to do with the seven rabbinic commandments?

David

nothing really.
if going off or expanding a subject offends - please accept my apologies i'll not do it again.

with respect,
moshe

Quote "My question to him was, "Why wasn't the rabbinic commandment to separate tithes included in the traditional "seven rabbinic commandments?" "Obviously," I said, "the Midrash has given it equal importance as that of reading the Megillas Esther at its appointed time!""

I think you can say that the 7 Mitzvos are only included those D'rabanons that don't have any bases in the Torah at all. But taking Maaser nowadays is only an extension of the original obligation of the Torah, thus cannot be included.

Quote "that counted in the 7 decrees are only those mitzvos which we make a bracha over, and which are positive, and not merely an extension of what the Torah says. Hence, mayser (The commandment to separate tithes), at least nowadays, is an extension of the biblical commandment of mayser and not included in the original seven."

But how can that be? We make a Bracha on Hafrashas Maaser (when it's certainly Tevel) and we don't make Brachos on Brachos (I guess it would have been "Asher Kidishunu B'Mitzvosuv V'Tzivunu L'varech)

Quote "Moshe,

A very nice sermon. But what does all this have to do with the seven rabbinic commandments?"

Furthermore, I don't think any of it makes any sense.T'filin is a Malbush, as it says specifically in Eiruvin 95b (See Tosfos D"H V'Chi.) That's why one may wear them while they are left out in the feild. No more than 2 pairs are permitted, since it's not a Malbush only where one would wear them regularly. Whether one or two depends if you'll be transgressing Baal Tosef by wearing 2.

Regularly you may not walk out with them on Shabbos since you might need the facilities, which you must take them off, and may carry them 4 Amos before you put them on again.

You shouldn't carry things you're not allowed to carry right before Shabbos, maybe you'll forget to put them down before Shabbos, but T'Filin is different since you always need to touch them, you'll remember them at all time and remove them before Shabbos.

This is the sum of the Sugyos that he brought. What he wrote about it, could anybody figure it out? please explain it if you know what he means.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Quote "that counted in the 7 decrees are only those mitzvos which we make a bracha over, and which are positive, and not merely an extension of what the Torah says. Hence, mayser (The commandment to separate tithes), at least nowadays, is an extension of the biblical commandment of mayser and not included in the original seven."

But how can that be? We make a Bracha on Hafrashas Maaser (when it's certainly Tevel) and we don't make Brachos on Brachos (I guess it would have been "Asher Kidishunu B'Mitzvosuv V'Tzivunu L'varech)

Excellent thought! So, I guess you can say that not all of these seven rabbinic commandments are required to make a blessing over them prior to our doing them!

If I might add to the question, why haven't the Tannaim and Amoraim mentioned specifically only seven rabbinic commandments? It would seem that the concept is new, and only came of late.

quote:

However if a man stands in awe of His Creator then wearing tefillen like blowing the shofar on shabbot on Rosh HaShannah, a person has permission; the entire purpose of Shabbot rests upon working upon &/or dedicationg one's middot. Just as the New Year judges a mans' commitment to cut and renew ones' brit relationship with the Elokim, so too if a person stands in awe of Elokim then obviously a person can place tefillen on shabbot and blow the shofar on shabbot. Torah has great depth. Its not a halachically cut and dried issue.

I'd say it's pretty cut and dried that we don't put on Tefillin on Shabbat nor do we blow Shofar on Rosh Hashannah. Please post a source that says otherwise. Indeed, as far as Tefillin is concerned (and I am assuming you are referring to someone who wishes to put on Tefillin L'Sheim Mitzva) there is no Mitzva to wear them on Shabbat.

How do we understand Rabbinic Commandments within the context of 'ba'al tosef'?

quote:

Originally posted by Gila:
How do we understand Rabbinic Commandments within the context of 'ba'al tosef'?

Gila,

The Rabbis have expounded a certain verse in the Torah, from which they learn:

ועשו משמרת למשמרתי

"And you shall make a watch upon my watch."

It was from here that they have taken preventive measures to many prohibitions named in the Torah.

Besides this, we find another teaching:

על פי המשפט אשר יורוך

"According to the judgment that they shall instruct you..." (Devorim, P. Shoftim) Meaning, we are obliged to follow the teachings of the gedolim of each generation.

David

quote:

It was from here that they have taken preventive measures to many prohibitions named in the Torah.

a. This doesn't explain the 7 rabbinic commandments which are postive commandments.
b. How is this different from Adam who also took preventive measures , by telling his wife not to touch the tree, when he was commanded not to eat from the tree?

B"H

Gila,

Perhaps Rav Chaim, or Rabbi Peretz, or Rabbi Yisroel Phillips, can answer your question.

David