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Picture of Avi d'Israeli
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Postscript;
MK Fink:
I guess the inyan you mention is at the core of my original thread...which is the kavana of heksher. Is it for the SAKE of Jews or FIT for Jews or both?
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post

Picture of Avi d'Israeli
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MK Fink;
You said "This may includ vegitarians and people with meat, milk or shelfish allergies. These people trust the OU and the self-serving (justifiably) vigilance of the jewish consumer more than the manufacturer to verify the contents of the food items."

As a physician, I've never heard anyone recommend kosher products for allergies etc. As a vegetarian I never heard anyone in that community recommend something kosher for the sake of vegetarianism. I recommend kosher meats for people who consume meat because the consumption of blood is not good for anyone's health. The consumption of hekshered products by all these groups developed after the fact and it is peripheral to Jewish consumption. I believe the heksher is for the SAKE of Jews and it must be FIT for Jewish consumption. Non-Jews may find justification for consuming Holy Jewish food, that's fine. The heksher authorities have done a good job of marketing and it's good for Am Yisrael.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post
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Picture of Yisroel Phillips
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Referring to your original question, I don't see that there is any Kavana to make the food for Jews by dint of its having a Hechser. The Hechsher is merely so that Jews will know that it is fit to be consumed by them. Almost all food doesn't need a Hechsher, but with the advent of so many different things that are now added for various purposes it has become difficult for the consumer to make up his/her own mind as to the Kashrus of a particular food.

As an aside, a Rabbi once told me that a non-Jewish dry cleaner was attaching an OU to the garments he had cleaned. When challenged about this by the OU he responded that he thought that the OUs Chaf Ks etc. were merely designations of quality! And it is, I believe, a fact that you will often find that supermarkets will put items with a Hechsher on them in a more prominent position on the shelves because of the perception of non-Jewish consumers as to the significance of a Hechser.
 
Posts: 797 | Location: London, England | Registered: June 10, 2005Report This Post

Picture of Avi d'Israeli
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Yisroel Phillips:
Again, I agree with everything you are saying. But, percieved the quality you mentioned is the result of additional layer of oversight (for the SAKE of Jews) and good marketing on the part of the heksher authorities. It was never part of the reason to issue the heksher itself. The only reason the food must be FIT to Jewish consumption is because it is made for SAKE of Jews. Any other reason is only incidental and welcome for Am Yisrael.
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post

Picture of Avi d'Israeli
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Most goyim do not know that the food they buy at the store is hekshered, but when you ask those who know what it means to be kosher, they will say, "easy....the rabbi prayed over it." So Goyim, in their own incomplete way, do have the sense that kosher food is "elevated". So when they look at a kosher "badge", do they really believe the food is "elevated" for their sake? Does a heksher bring a measure of kedusha to a product?
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post

Picture of Avi d'Israeli
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We will probably go around in circles on this one so I will recap my argument. My original example was a donuts outlet located in a Jewish community with a heksher to produce food for Jews. If this were not located in a Jewish neighborhood some arguments could be made that the donuts were not made for Jews. While my argument is that a heksher implies that food is made for Jews, being located in a Jewish neighborhood makes it tacit "commissioned" work for Jews. So far I haven't seen a compelling argument to the contrary. Most arguments say that because so many more Goyim consume hekshered products the heksher cannot mean "made for Jews". But I see that as circular reasoning. Goyim consume kosher food because Jews made it available for their own SAKE, not the other way round. Does tacitly "commissioned" food made for Jews on Shabbath create a halachic issue? I don't feel this question has been exhausted.
Shabbat Shalom!
 
Posts: 901 | Location: Olam Haze | Registered: October 20, 2005Report This Post
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