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The kashrut of birds requires a mesora in order for it to be considered kosher even with all the kosher characteristics. Is it the same for split-hoof ruminants even the ones for which Jews don't have a mesora? I know kosher bison is available but Jews never had mesora for it. Why? Does it mean elk, caribou and reindeer are also kosher behema, even though Jews don't have mesora for them?
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Do the animals you mention, BOTH chew their cud and have split hooves? If yes, what is the shaila? [You only mention in your question - split hoof.]
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I mention ruminants (chew the cud). So yes, they have split hooves and chew the cud. Jews don't generally go around looking for reindeer or caribou meat, so I don't know what the shaila is, that's why I'm asking.
I know cattle are succesfully crossbred with bison to create beefalo, so I guess that could be one reason to deem kosher beyond the stipulated characteristics. |
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Volunteer |
I didn't notice that you said "ruminants" nor understood what you were trying to say (should've looked up the word), but thanks for translating. when you say "beefalo" do you mean "buffalo"? also, perhaps the meat is not as tasty as the ones traditionally on the market?
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The decision of the Ramah (which only applies to Askenazic jews) was the first to suggest that one needs a messoret for eating birds. The chazon ish, based on his interpetation of hints in certain achronim, felt that one also needs a messoret for ruminants. This was a big chidush and was strongly objected to and I don't know of any American Rabbanim who accepted it. (Rab Vozner was also less than enthusiastic.) What really upset people was his pesack that the zebu or indian cow has no messoret while the european cow does.
The issue came alive again about two years ago and it cause major damage to the Israel meat industry. Since I was involved in the decision making, I will make the following comments: The jews have been eating the Indian cow since the time of Moshe rabbanu. We have pictures of cows from the time of Pharoah and pictures of cows in the floors of synagogues through the 6 th century. They clearly depict the zebu with its characteristic hump. If anything there is no tradition to eat the european cow without the hump. Exactly what the Chazon Ish ate is not clear to me as there were no european cows in Israel during his time and I have no idea what he ate for milk or cheese. Sincerely, Aryeh Shore |
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Sam,
When you crossbreed cattle with bison (buffalo) you get a beefalo. Aryeh, Thanks! But you didn't address the ruminants like reindeer, caribou etc for which we don't have a mesora. Are you saying that practically all the rabbonim in the Americas accept a split-hoof ruminant to be kosher, even without a mesora? |
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I am saying that the American rabbis didn't accept that the indian cow didn't have a mesoret. Most american beef cattle have some indian cow today since it was introduced very early on and the all the beef in Florida up till a few years ago was Brahman (American zebu). As for the new world bison, (as well as venison), the OU allows it. (I haven't figure out if the Jews ate the old world bison. There are only a handful left in a preserve in Lithania so we are not going to find out soon. Certainly sounds like Rashi's ox of the forrest to me but Rashi could be referring to an extinct ox called the Auruch.)
They just had a halakic dinner last year preceded with a day of seminars to explain everything. The Israeli rabbinate following in the footsteps of the Chazon Ish, even if they are sephardic, just outlawed reindeer and red deer. So if you hold you do not need a mesoret (and why not, there is nothing in the shulchan aruch agin it), then caribu and reindeer would be acceptable. However, although we keep trying, we haven't been able to get anyone to accept giraffe. (Ari and Dani disected a giraffe to demonstrate it is a ruminant.) I find it hard to believe one can shecht a giraffe as they are very nervous animals and tend to break their necks when you restrain them but that is a another story. As for other ruminants, you can check out R. Slivkin's book, The Camel, the Hare and the Hydrax which is still available. (Some of the other books are temporarily out of print. That is all I am going to say about it, since Nosson asked that we keep it off the internet.) Americans call bison buffalo. The shulchan aruch calls water buffalo, buffalo. The europeans call bison, bison and presume this is what the commentators on the shulchan aruch mean by wissent. Aryeh Shore |
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Aryeh;
This is just fascinating! Toda! Does the Israeli rabbinate allow bison? When you say venison, do you mean elk, white tail, and fallow deer? Would ibex be considered venison too? ... Ooops! Ok I'll keep it off the internet. |
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Volunteer |
What does this mean? |
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Sam;
____________________________________________________ As for other ruminants, you can check out R. Slivkin's book, The Camel, the Hare and the Hydrax which is still available. (Some of the other books are temporarily out of print. That is all I am going to say about it, since Nosson asked that we keep it off the internet.) ____________________________________________________ I was responding to Aryeh's comment above. |
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Just out of curiousity... but how often do you work with giraffes and how many necks have been broken during you restraining them?...  As for the giraffe being disected to show that it is a ruminant- hasn't the issue already been deemed that that the giraffe is a halachically kosher animal, but concerning shechting i have heard that its unknown exactly where one should shecht- with such a neck the area is not known exactly...is this correct? and of course, there is no mesora for eating such an animal. (also i think that it might be pretty hard to convince the world its okay to shecht and eat giraffes...) |
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Volunteer |
Simply ask a zoo keeper for his statistics 
I heard that the meat of the girrafe is hardly tasty and also since there is very little meat to be gained from slaughtering/killing a giraffe, it's not seen on the market. |
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The response I've given in the past is that it upsets the zookeepers too much. regarding the legend that we don't know how - http://www.kashrut.com/articles/giraffe/ Apparently some Jews believe we might know how to shecht a giraffe. My rabbi, who first told me that we don't know how thought I knew it was said in a joking matter, and when I found this wrote back: { The truth is, we do know how to shecht a giraffe. It's just a comical myth that we don't know how. The real reason we don't shecht them is because it is not economically feasible. Best regards, Rabbi } |
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Bracha;
You said; _______________________________________________ Just out of curiousity... but how often do you work with giraffes and how many necks have been broken during you restraining them?... ________________________________________________ This is one of the funniest comments I've heard on this blog. Keep it up...Ellen Degeneris may be looking for a new job in the near future.  |
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Giraffe necks:
The observation on giraffe necks being easily broken is from a lecture from one of my colleagues who spent sometime in Kenya treating giraffes. You could see from the film how they had to have a dozen men supporting the neck with ropes before giving anesthesia. Recently the people at safari, Ramat Gan tried to ship some giraffes but they died. Now the giraffes are living in the packing case for six months and it is hoped that this time they will not be so nervous that they die. Although we know that giraffes are ruminants, exact descriptions with photographs were not availble so Dani and Ari Zivitovsky dissected one so the pictures would be available to all the halachic authorities. (Believe it or not, not everything you read in a book is necessarily true.) Now I did obtain a permit for the importation of 50 kg of giraffe meat for our halachic diner but it was moved to the US and the OU wasn't interested. I still have the permit if anyone is interested. Aryeh Shore |
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B"H
To Moshe Yisraeliand to all the gang that has contributed to Moshe's original question, SHALOM! I remember being told that Rabbi Sa'adia Gaon translates the Hebrew word "Zamer," (in Dvorim 14:5) as "Giraffe," meaning that it is one of the ruminates that the Torah clearly says can be eaten by Jews! So, why haven't we seen it eaten as Kosher food? I posed this question to Rabbi Yoseph Qafih z"l who said to me simply that this animal was not found in areas settled by Jews. When asked if it were permitted for us to have it ritually slaughtered and eaten, he replied to me with a definite "Yes," saying that as far a Mesora is concerned, it is sufficient to rely upon the expertise of Rabbi Sa'adia Gaon who said that it was a Kosher animal, and that obviously anyone could see that it had the clear signs of a Kosher animal. In this regard, it is no different from a Yemenite Jew who today eats "Turkey," although this fowl was not native to Yemen or to Asia, but rather native to North-America. Yet, since we rely upon the expertise of others that the bird is Kosher (viz., that it has a crop, gizzard, and a fourth toe), we eat it! As for "not knowing the place of slaughter," this is a common fallacy. Maimonides writes in his Halachot Shehita that "the entire neck is valid for ritual slaughter." This is all that I have to say about this subject. Thanks for bringing it up! Sincerely, David Ben-Abraham |
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B"H
For a complete review on Bison, Turkey, etc. see: Rabbi Ari Zivotovsk, PhD. He has written three articles for Jnl contemporary halacha. His articles are also on the web. Benjamin I. Rubin, Eye MD, Better Vision Center & NEI Consultation Service 7801 Renoir Court Potomac, MD 20854 Tel: 301-309-1886 Fax 301-762-2878 Sent wirelessly via BlackBerry from T-Mobile. Direct connection: brubin3@... Sincerely, David |
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