Does the licensee of a heksher have to have the kavana that he is producing the food product for Jews?
Example: A few years ago during the Krispy Kreme donut craze, an outlet was opened in a Jewish community. The operator obtained a heksher and Jews were buying his donuts. However, the operator opened on Shabbat. Jews didn’t buy there on Shabbat but goyim did. Motze Shabbat there were packaged left over donuts that were marked down. Of course, these were good bargains for Jews….or were they?
1. Was this heksher any good?
2. If it was good, were Shabbat donuts any good? Assuming that the ovens and cookers had been handled by a Jew erev Shabbat, were the donuts made on Shabbat good for Jewish consumption motze Shabbat?
3. The operator was operating in a Jewish community on Shabbat, does the ownership of a heksher license demand of him the kavana of making donuts for Jews and, as such, was he making donuts for Jews on Shabbat even though he knew they would only buy them motze Shabbat?

I think there should be no problem in this. See the Rama in the very end of 307 where he permits a jew watching a Goy making cheese to buy from him after Shabbos, since the Goy is doing his Malacha on his own objects he's doing for himself, even though he has in mind selling it to a jew, since technically he doesn't need to sell it to the jew and could keep it for himself.

Rav Chaim; Thank you. I am familiar with the Rama. My question is more about the heksher than the performance of the job. My question is that once a goy has obtained a heksher license, isn't that tacit "commissioned" work. As such, it becomes work specifically performed for a Jew on Shabbat in this situation. Under a heksher he is no longer doing it for himself....otherwise he wouldn't need the heksher.

PostScript: My view is that once a heksher license is taken everything produced under that heksher is "made for Jews" and if Goyim want to partake of it, they are welcome. So if it's "made for Jews" on Shabbat, is that an issue? Perhaps my view on the heksher kavana here is off. I also make a distinction between "made for Jews" at a factory somewhere for wider distribution and "made for Jews" at a storefront with the intent of immediate consumption.

M. Yisraeli

Where do you find support for the ideas. Surely there is nothing in mishna brurea that support this notion. A heksher is nothing other than supervision of the kosher process there is no commision of work unless that it is a specified limited run of a product. limited runs are also usually done for wholesalers under supervision not by the supervising agency. The krispy kreeme donoughts were never a special run item they are certified to be kosher dairy and not cholev yisroel. About the only thing that they are obligated to do under this type of supervision is not put meat into the doughnut mix.

My question is simply of heksher kavana or lack thereof. I am not claiming that Misha Brura discussed the issue of heksher licenses in this fashion. But, it was my question as to whether when someone takes on a heksher license what it meant. You say it is nothing other than "supervision of the kosher process". I would have to accept that.

Although kosher supervision is just supervision does not mean that a person should not consider kavanah when considering their food options. I know several people that are scrupulous about not eating food from their home or sombody's home that they are heimish with. They avoid prepared or take out food with great care and alot of mesiras nefesh. But this level of scrutiny is important to there observance and as long is they don't condemn other people as traif for not keeping their chumros it's good for them. Obviously there are many levels of awareness of kavonah and other chumros between eating an OU-D(stam) oreo and churning your own butter so as to not have anybody involved in your food that you don't know. The Skevere Rebbe in New Square, NY has freshly taken unpasturized milk brought to him every morning. Most people either cannot or have no intention of following this minhag but for him it is an important observance.

I wonder if there is a term other than kosher for the dimension of our food that it not be problematic for consumption for things other than ingredients...

We probably would not be comfortable buying and eating food that was stolen, or made from stolen ingredients.

We probably would not be comfortable buying and eating food that was produced in violation of child labor laws.

But if treif is the opposite of kosher, I'm not sure that these aspects would call it treif.

Shabbos-observance and kashrus are related in 2 ways at least...

One must be perceived to be Shomer Shabbos in order to be a reliable witness to be able to testify when something is kosher.

And food which is cooked on Shabbos is problematic to eat.

But if there is even a Jew or two who are stringent in kashrus but not stringent in Shabbos perhaps there even is a market for ingredient-kosher food?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
And food which is cooked on Shabbos is problematic to eat.

It is only a problem for a Jew who cooks it deliberately [B'Meizid] on Shabbos, in that it may never be eaten by him or anyone for whom he was cooking the food. Anyone else may eat the food after Shabbos (allowing for the time it would have taken to cook after Shabbos).

So a Jewish owned factory that cooks food for the Jewish market on Shabbos; that's a problem for Jews generally.

Dear Yisroel:

Seems to me you are making a small jump from the intention of making it for a specific person and making it to be available for any of a number of unknown people.

Perhaps there is a good basis for this jump.

If an overnight global delivery (ever see the trucks which say G O D on the side???) international business cooks food at a time when it is not Shabbos for the buyer, or potential buyer, but it is Shabbos on the cook's local time, and somehow manages to take care of all other technicalities, does it then become permissible after Shabbos for local customers to buy the extras that didn't have overnight orders?

I think halacha presumes that the cook and the buyer are in the same timeframe.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
PostScript: My view is that once a heksher license is taken everything produced under that heksher is "made for Jews" and if Goyim want to partake of it, they are welcome. So if it's "made for Jews" on Shabbat, is that an issue? Perhaps my view on the heksher kavana here is off. I also make a distinction between "made for Jews" at a factory somewhere for wider distribution and "made for Jews" at a storefront with the intent of immediate consumption.

I don't think your approach is tenable: a hechsher does not imply that all the food is being made for Jews. Consider, for example, a few popular products in the U.S.: Lay's potato chips, Hershey's chocolate bars, Kellog's Corn Flakes, Morningstar Farms vegetarian products, Oreo cookies, Mazola corn oil: all have hechshers, and the vast majority of all of them are sold to non-Jews, not Jews.

The same is even true of many local operations: for example, there's a kosher restaurant (owned by non-Jews) not too far from here, under hashgacha, with probably less than 5% of its customers Jewish. My local supermarket's bakery has hashgacha for some products like rolls and some cakes, and I doubt that more than 10% of the customers are Jewish.

In all these cases, the company is preparing food for its own good, to be able to sell it and make money; it's not being prepared for the sake of Jews. There's nothing wrong with non-Jews working on Shabbos, and it doesn't render the food non-kosher. (Not even if they intend to serve the kosher market.)

Kol tuv,

Steve Albert

Steve Albert;
I agree with the reality of what you say. This is the reason the thread was about heksher kavana. In reality, as you point out, probably better that 95% of hekshered product is consumed by goyim. But that wasn't my argument, because goyim can eat anything. What's the meaning of a heksher? "Made for Jews"? Goyim can eat kosher any day, but Jews cannot eat non-kosher. So hypothetically, if a heksher means "made for Jews" it does not preclude goyim from consumming it. Again, the issue is the meaning of a heksher.

Postscript:
Steve Albert: You say "In all these cases, the company is preparing food for its own good, to be able to sell it and make money; it's not being prepared for the sake of Jews."
Why does the heksher authority send a mashgiach? To make sure the food is fit to be consumed by Jews. Not only that, the heksher authority does not trust the goy to do it right that's why there is a need for constant oversight. So the company is preparing food for its own good? Perhaps....but that my question.

If the hechsher giver's kavana is:

I don't know why any Shomer Mitzvos Jew would _want_ to buy this food, but the company preparing the food doesn't want to exclude them from their market, so they want it certified kosher if the ingredients are kosher.

For example, maybe some would say that eating tofu that is cooked into the shape of shell fish or other treif food substances is a maris ayin problem, but they might say its kashrus by ingredients is perfectly fine for those who don't have a maris ayin problem.

I remember when "Faken-Bacon" was on the market and selling in Kosher Supermarkets....

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Postscript:
Steve Albert: You say "In all these cases, the company is preparing food for its own good, to be able to sell it and make money; it's not being prepared for the sake of Jews."
Why does the heksher authority send a mashgiach? To make sure the food is fit to be consumed by Jews.

Moshe
Look carefully at Steve's quote and your response. He was writing about that the food is not being prepared for the SAKE of a jew. You responded regarding if it was FIT for a jew. These are two completely different halachic inyan.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
If the hechsher giver's kavana is:

I don't know why any Shomer Mitzvos Jew would _want_ to buy this food, but the company preparing the food doesn't want to exclude them from their market, so they want it certified kosher if the ingredients are kosher.

Frequently products are used in other products. So a manufacturer needs to have a hasgacha in order to sell is product to another manufacturer. So the hechsher on the first product is de-facto.

another reason for haschgacha on foods that Jews may not be interested is that according to the organizers of the annual kosher food show in New York (they use this informatin to draw more particpants, it is already a massive event at the Javits center in NYC) more than 50% of people that use non-haimish hecksher are using it for reasons other than koshrus. This may includ vegitarians and people with meat, milk or shelfish allergies. These people trust the OU and the self-serving (justifiably) vigilance of the jewish consumer more than the manufacturer to verify the contents of the food items.

MK Fink;
I agree I said FIT for Jewish consumption, but that in itself does not preclude for the SAKE of Jews.