According to halacha we should only be consumming dairy products that are Chalav Yisrael. However, a heter was put in place to allow Jews, in a pinch, to consume goy milk if it has been supervised properly by the authorities. My understanding is that such a heter was only intended for special circumstances. Now the OU issues a diary heksher on goy dairy products such as ice cream. Is this for the benefit of Jews, who can't consume it anyway?

Do you have a citation for this halacha and heter?

My community's standard has been to not require Chalav Yisrael, but that its a valid chumra, and many in the community go out of their way to accomodate those who hold by that chumra, despite chalav yisrael milk and cheese not being readily available.

I once tried to get chalav yisrael milk by asking a farmer with a small cow herd if we could watch them be milked and have some of the milk. His answer was quite interesting...

My kids and I got a great field trip seeing cows milked, and learning that contrary to what I had been told, a mother cow does not produce milk indefinitely, and also saw how half the milk he got from her was reserved for her calf.

But he was not permitted to give us milk because eventhough he pasteurizes it he cannot be certain its safe.

When he used to be a commercial farm with many herds he would have been certified to give us milk, but then he would not have been allowed to let strangers into his barn either.

He was operating under the laws of Massachusetts. How are dairy farm laws elsewhere in galus ?

Shalom,
My understanding is that Chalav Yisrael is the halacha not the chumra. So technically all Jews should be consumming Chalav Yisrael. But a heter was instituted (sorry I don't have the source) not because of lack of availability of Chalav Yisrael because adults can live a vibrant life without milk. The heter was for emergency situations for infants and the like, but most Jews in the galut have taken that heter to mean a substitute for Chalav Yisrael when it's not available. That's why my question is why OU offers a dairy heksher that is not Chalav Yisrael. Isn't it an oxymoron?

I suggest you take a look at Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah 1, Siman 47 to 49.

As one travels around the world, one has to rely on Chabad houses. Now Chabad does use Chalav Yisrael so they don't have milk products. Fortunately in Japan, the Hagan-Daiz has the OU. In any event, the Chabad Rabbi in Potsdam decided one day he wanted Chalav Yisrael. The only farmer in the area that he could find was one with water buffallos. I hope the milk tasted OK. If not he could always make Mazarelli cheese.

Aryeh Shore

Please note that having cholov yisroel milk is not as simple as watching the farmer milk the cow. Certain vetrinary procedures make a cows milk not acceptable. In larger heards this may be resoled by 1 in 60 under certain circumstances. However, it requires expertise in halach do determine that milk is kosher and if so cholov yisroel. That farmer may have done a great tova for you be denying you milk that may have been traif in your pursuit of cholov yisroel. Mechon l'Horah had an extensive p'sach on this subject. I will see if it is still available.

I pulled this from tzemachdovid.org
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The Mordechai in Avodah Zarah (Siman 826, in 41b in the Rif) quotes an authority who holds that if it can be ascertained that the non-Jew has no access to non-Kosher milk, a Jew may consume the milk provided by this non-Jew even though no Jew was present during the milking process, but he rejects this view, preferring the other authorities he quotes who hold that even in such a case, a Jew must be present at least at the start of the milking process. The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah Ibid.), as explained by the Taz (Ibid. Sif Katan 2), requires that a Jew must at least be nearby for the milk to be permitted. The Radvaz (Sheilos V'Teshuvos HaRadvaz Chelek 4 Siman Aleph 147), however, rules clearly that if it is absolutely certain that no milk from a non-Kosher animal can be found which the non-Jew could obtain, a Jew may consume the milk processed by a non-Jew even if no Jew was present during the milking. He asserts that other authorities agree with him and that there never was a ban on all milk processed by a non-Jew regardless of the circumstances. Rather, the prohibition against consuming milk provided by a non-Jew was formulated merely because of the possibility that non-Kosher milk would get mixed in with the Kosher milk. Where no such possibility exists, there never was a prohibition.

The Chasam Sofer (Sheilos V'Teshuvos Chasam Sofer Chelek Yoreh Deah Siman 107), however, writes that the prohibition against consuming milk processed by a non-Jew was a general, broadly intended prohibition, which therefore applies in all cases, even when it is clear that the original reason for the prohibition, namely, the possibility that non-Kosher milk may get mixed in with the Kosher milk, does not apply in a particular situation. He also writes (Ibid.) that the long-standing Jewish practice to drink only Cholov Yisrael constitutes the acceptance of this behavior as a Neder a vow from the Torah, and thus it cannot be changed. The Chochmas Adam (Ibid. Sif 1) writes that the major Poskim do not accept any leniency in this regard; the Aruch HaShulchan (Yoreh Deah Ibid. Sif 6) likewise stresses that one should not be lenient in this Halacha, documenting with an interesting story that the problem of non-Kosher ingredients in milk can come up even when not at all expected.

It must be noted, however, that Rav Moshe Feinstein (Sheilos V'Teshuvos Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah Chelek 1 Siman 47) suggests a leniency which is applicable today, at least in the United States, where government laws strictly regulate the manufacturing of milk for public sale, and where government inspectors regularly visit dairy plants to guarantee that certain standards are met.
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Continued.....
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Rav Feinstein therefore rules (Ibid.) that the government's inspection of dairy plants and their certification of dairy products is a valid substitute for the required Jewish supervision of the milking process, because the definitive knowledge of something is the equivalent of actually seeing it. He asserts that all the Poskim would agree to this; this ruling is also articulated by the Chazon Ish (Chelek Yoreh Deah Siman 41 Os 4). Rav Feinstein does conclude (Ibid.), however, that it is proper for one to be strict and drink only real Cholov Yisrael, not relying on the government's standards, which is the practice he himself followed. It should be pointed out that there is also some discussion among the Poskim regarding other dairy and milk products in terms of the above Halachos.
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I guess my original question is answered by the ruling above....i.e. that rav Feinstein ruled a leniency. But, if Rav Feinstein himself recommended Chalav Yisrael and that's what he consumed himself, why would the heksherim take the lenient path? How difficult is it to have a permanent Jewish mashgiach on staff at the large dairies that have the OU dairy hekser?

The citations to Rav Feinstein are apt and helpful, but for practical application, you ought to talk to your local knowledgeable rabbi (Orthodox) who can weigh your circumstances. If you commit to Chalav Yisroel, you must stay with that commitment. How about your wife/kids/in-laws,et al? BTW, when I was in a local ("kosher") rehabil facility not long ago, following total knee replacement, I only was told about the non-Chalav Yisrael status of certain dairy products three days after I arrived.
---By the on-site rabbi, who seemed apologetic, "All the other items ARE Chalav Isroel" (!)

Thanks Yehoshua. I'm still puzzled why someone will not tell me why any rabbonim would issue a heksher based on a leniency. I don't know any other heksher issued based on a leniency. We certainly wouldn't do it on wine. Oh, perhaps bread. I hadn't thought about bread. Are there any bakeries that are not Pas Yisrael but have a heksher? I think that's an answer I will have to get from OU.

I'm not sure about the OU, but the Star-K in Baltimore issues non-pas yisroel kosher heksher and in some cases relies on a light bulb in the oven for pas yisroel certification. I believe the OU does certify commmercial non-jewish brands that would certainly be non-pas-yisroel

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Thanks Yehoshua. I'm still puzzled why someone will not tell me why any rabbonim would issue a heksher based on a leniency. I don't know any other heksher issued based on a leniency. We certainly wouldn't do it on wine. Oh, perhaps bread. I hadn't thought about bread. Are there any bakeries that are not Pas Yisrael but have a heksher? I think that's an answer I will have to get from OU.

I doubt that (say) Freihoffer's bread is Pas Yisroel, but I may be wrong.

1) It is only possible for there to be chalav Yisrael on all kosher products if there are numerous people who are able to cover the necessary supervision on all of the farms that produce milk. There are milk co-operatives and many small farmers join together to contribute their milk. The chalav Yisrael, milk and milk products result from those farms, for example in Upper New York State who are even willing to miss tefillah be'tibur, etc., as the Demnitziner Rebbe said---to assist with kashrus
of the tzibur, a mashgiach can give up a lot.
2) If one is in a pinch, when travelling, one can take with powdered chalav Yisrael. Or according to Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank --powdered stam milk source cannot be made from behamah temai'ah--and thus regular powdered milk is all right. Rav Moshe,z"zt"l differs and says that powdered milk can be made from behamah temai'ah.
3) the OU is not to be faulted in any way for certifying products from chalav stam. They follow Rav Moshe, z'zt'l for their p'sakim by and large and they have their poskim, such as Rav Yisrael Belsky, Rav Hershel Schachter, and Rav Menachem Genack.
4) One should not even question them on line. I heard tones of pejorative which stops the geulah. Contact them directly if you have a question.
5) The OU makes sure to cover the halachic requirements for bishul Yisrael. However, they do not have pas yisrael for all of their products because it is not necessary within the guidelines for the Shulchan Aruch.
I do not work for the OU.
Kol Tuv,
Shlomo Grafstein
shlomoeg@juno.com

Just out of interest (and also because my son-in-law is a Sefardi) do the OU's Halachic requirements for Bishul Yisrael accord with those of the Mechaber, namely that the Jew must do more than just light the flame?

To Shlomo Grafstein:
Thanks for your wondeful post. I would be the first to apologize if in anyway I came across as being perjorative to any rabbonim. I thought this forum was for the exchange of ideas, debate etc without the constraints of gedolim and poskim. My original question was why the UO would issue a chalav hekser for product that wasn't Chalav Yisrael. I suspect they invoke Rav Feinsteins leniency and my next question was why a hekser can be issued based on a leniency. To me it almost defeats the purpose of the heksher to begin with. Rav Feinstien's leniency says it's okay to consume goy milk inspected by goy authorities. That leniency should stand on its own without needing to be propped up by a Jewish heksher. This is the reason why Rav Feinstein himself stuck to Chalav Yisrael. By expressing such opinions they are intended for further learning and discussion not to be perjorative towards any gedolim. If I have offended anyone, please accpet my apologies.

I don't think your question was out of line. Your not complaining about their P'sak, but only asking on it.

The truth is, that RAv Moshe held that the Heter was not a excuse Heter, but it's kosher M'Ikkur D'Dina. If I remember it correctly, he says that there are many rabbis that are Somech on the Heter L'Chatchila. (My wife worked for an American office for an old B'nai Braq Yeshiva. The RAbbi who was in charged used to buy his cofee on the street with milk because the Chazon Ish told him he's allowed to.) Even though he said that a Baal Nefesh should be Machmir, still, it's not like anyone who relies on the Heter is doing anything wrong. Thus a rabbi giving a Hechsher for those that do keep the Heter there is nothing wrong with it. He's making sure that there is no other Issur, which doesn't have a Heter, to go into it.

quote:

Just out of interest (and also because my son-in-law is a Sefardi) do the OU's Halachic requirements for Bishul Yisrael accord with those of the Mechaber, namely that the Jew must do more than just light the flame?

I would doubt it, since the Jew needs to put the food on the fire and that would be extremely difficult to have jew there all the time.

Rav Chaim;
Thank you. I like your explanation...as I understand it; that the heksher is not for the heter itself, but rather that if someone chooses to invoke the heter then there is no other issur associated with that chalav product. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

If you used milk where most of the milk is milked by Jews from kosher cows, we rely on bitul b'shishim that the one in a thousand cows may have been treif and the milk was treif. However, once a Mashgiach walks into the refet, there is no bitul bshishim as there is a set number of cows. If the masgiach, hardly any of which have any veterinary training, missing the treif cow (easy enough to do, you have to know where to look for the scars from the operation), the milk is treif, i.e., you are being so machmir you are being makal. (being so strict, that you are lenient).

In any event, our readers shouldn't worry about it as we took care of this particular problem five years ago.

Aryeh Shore

mechon lharoya in New York actually and appropriate members "internship" with vetrinarians that performed such procedures so that the would be able to recognize the procedures and their implications. They also requested adjustments to the procedures in certain situations. Which the vetrinarian found to be possible. As I stated early on in this posting a jew watching a cow being milked does not make cholov yisroel milk. In torah it is always best to ask when we don't understand. And, if anybody gives an answer that it is simple ask sombody older, and more learning.