It always had bothered me about the lack of bekius learnt these days. In a lot of yeshivos they stress Iyon so much that I feel it is at the expense of learning up. To many people coming out of yeshivos don't have a proper scope of most sugyos and of halacha.I know that there where Gedolim that spoke out about learning up more. Most vocal of them, I think, was Rav Gifter zt"l. In my experiance, the bekius is a real enhancement to Iyon. With a wide scope ans seeing the whole picture is able a person to grasp a mahalech in the sugya better. It also helps you compare gemaras (midama milsa l'milsa). I'm not suggesting to abandon Iyon, I'm just saying there should be a balance.

Actually ,the biggest proponent for learning up was Rav Shach zt"l.I remember how he demanded that bochrim should learn minimum one blatt every day. In my days in Ponevez Rav Schach said shiur in Bava Metziah and reached in three month till Daf 27 (he still complained "es vaksen amei hooretz). The truth is that Iyun without Bekius is a halbe Zach .Real healthy Iyun is a natural outcome of thorough bekius. Bekuis today is just Uplernen which it should not be. I once heard beshaim R" Chaim Shmulevitz the following " people confuse learning Pshat and learning Poshut ".The meaning is obvious.

I agree. The two complement each other. Without Bekius, you can't grasp Iyun fully, and without Iyun, you can't comprehend Bekius 100%.

Both are definitely interdependent. The more gemorahs you learn the deeper your understanding is of each individual gemorrah. The sharper your beiyun acumen the stronger your ability to learn more gemorrahs.

I have had my own struggles with this exact issue. I have no background so as an adult all of my learning was new. I learn Hamafkid with a rabbi right now and its great going through Rashi and Tosafos. However, when I mentioned bekius style learning for another session I was told to just focus on iyun. We could learn iyun another gemara but not bekius. My secular legal training and current job provide a definite support for bekius in that world. I would think that seeing the Torah system as a whole would make each of the parts shine that much more for both the depth iyun and the integration into the whole Torah. This came up when I was learning Yetzios. There is a comment about tzaras in Tosafos. Having read the Mishnah, I knew what they were albeit superficially but enough to catch the point. My chavrusa looked at me with great suprise. Just my two cents.

just to share my thoughts...i have just now began my first real be'iyun shiur in yeshiva, after a few years of bekiyus. so here is my take:
starting out with bekiyus, will build your talmudic skills with the more material you see..which naturally builds into b'iyun...for as you get pshat clear, you will find kashas and what not.
obviusly, first one must chap gemara rashi..and i think the more bekiyus you do with that, b'iyun will just come. then you have the question of, how b'iyun should i go? some blott, theoretically, you could spend months on. so my opinion is...for me, i like to spend a shtark morning seder in b'iyun..and then do 1-2 hours of real bekiyus...ie.not reading, but learning for a clear pshat.

Well I don't know about the these part

The spanish rabbis did appreciate the tosephot's approach and thought the students were devoting too much time to analysis and not learning the text. The maharal was also against spending too much time on the tosephot and even published a talmud without the tesphot. It is true that the pilpullim of the litaim yeshivot can reach extremes but the problem of not enough bikiyut and too much iyun has been with us for a long time and apparently is not fatal.
Ironically the daf yomi which was to be a solution to the problem just became a vehicle for baalei batim.

Cheers,

Aryeh Shore

The yeshiva i go to now has 2nd seder and its all bekiyus - i dont think there is a lack of it.The yeshiva im going to next year which is in Eretz Yisroel has bekiyus seder from 4-7 everyday.I happen to like both and most yeshivos do it so that their students can finish the mesechta or get better reading skills

B"H that ba'alei batim have a vehicle to learn...I know that the normative path of Jewish thought is to focus on what's going on in the yeshivas, but there are lots and lots of frum men who aren't zocheh to sit in a kollel all day. Frankly, I'm a lot less worried about those who do get to sit not quite getting the perfect blend of b'kius and b'iyun than I am about the people who are trying to wrestle a little learning out of their punishing schedules. I've been in both situations, and I can tell you it's not so easy to sit down and try to figure out a daf of gemara when you've just been pounding your head against your job for the last 12-15 hours, you have kids and a wife who want attention, bills to deal with, etc.

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Ironically the daf yomi which was to be a solution to the problem just became a vehicle for baalei batim.

Baruch Hashem that there are over 50,000 blatt of Gemorrah being learnt each day! It's not just a vehicle for baalei batim as you say, but a means that people who are working to support themselves, or a family, can now sit and learn, either early in the morning before davening or late at night before going to sleep.

General Statement: People shouldn't knock Daf Yomi at all! If it is not for you, don't do it, but knocking it might push away the person doing the daf yomi to not learning at all during any 24 hour period.

There is Amud Yomi which focuses in the same hour or so, just one side of a Blatt of Gemorah. In other words, to each their own.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sam-,

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People shouldn't knock Daf Yomi at all! If it is not for you, don't do it, but knocking it might push away the person doing the daf yomi to not learning at all during any 24 hour period.

Sam, I agree with you 100%. A few years ago I used to make fun of daf yomi because not many people on the program remember anything they learned. But, I realize that I was wrong. It is wonderful that so many people are coming together each day to learn, discuss and think about Torah. And if they don't recall their learning - at very least they gave up something else (probably sleep) to go to a shiur.

Gilad, thank you. I look at it this way, we are taught "that it is for us to learn and study the Torah" that is our job, period. Memory, is something that every person has different levels of, and if you take someone who probably has been out of Yeshiva for 10-20 years and now starts learning a whole page of gemorrah a day, well, that is a start!

And as you very well say, "at the very least...." exactly, they are probably giving up a lot of things. "Lfum Tzaara Agrah" can be applied to here very well, according to the pain is the reward.

I thought it may be worthwhile to point out a Archas Tzaddikim I just learned. He says that a person's ikur limud (the main thing he should spend his time learning) should be bekiyus, and his lashon is that (translated), "he should do this even if he will forget what he learned and even if he doesn't even know what he's saying."

I asked my Rebbe about this and he said that the reason people don't follow that in Yeshiva nowadays is simply because they won't be successful - if you learn in such a fashion for 8 hrs a day you'll very quickly get bored of it and lose your desire to keep learning. That's why we spend more time on more involving iyun.

He also showed a haskama for a certain sefer (I forgot the name of the sefer) from R' Yaakov Kaminetsky zt"l where he writes explicity that the correct derech of limud Torah in fact changes in every generation. He brings as proof: The Gemara relates that even Rabah and R' Yosef [2 of the Roshei HaYeshivos in Surah around at the same time period] that one was a sinai (to acquire bredth - bekiyus) whereas the other was oker harim (to be very sharp - to learn b'iyun). If Rabah and R' Yosef, 2 of the greatest Amoraim had such different m'halchim in derech halimud, all the more so ourselves, nowadays, who have to really put in all the effort possible to be successful in our learning.

However those learning in Daf Yomi - those spending only an hr learning - it would definetely make sense that since they're able to, they should spend the time flying through the Gemara, eventhough they may very well forget it.

Just my 2 cents. Comments appreciated.

Lets try it this way. A man is a highly trained successful physician. He knows everything about his field. On the other hand he knows nothing of history, science or the arts. When he starts talking with other educated people, the think he must be an ignoramus or something.

I expect for the kavod of torah that someone who has learned in a kolel for ten years should be able to discuss any topic in shas or judiasm intellegently. This has been my experience with Kollelnicks from the US and Europe. On the other hand, the products of the Israeli yeshivot (since 1967) sound ignorant when they give drashas and things and it is very annoying if not down right alarming because, as opposed to outside of Israel, he is taking public monies to do this. I feel let down that I am not getting a real talmud chacham that I want my tax money to go to support.

Aryeh Shore

Do you mean that you feel that the Israelis seem to have less bekeyous than the westerners. I am not trying to argue, I just want to clarify what your opinion.

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asked my Rebbe about this and he said that the reason people don't follow that in Yeshiva nowadays is simply because they won't be successful - if you learn in such a fashion for 8 hrs a day you'll very quickly get bored of it and lose your desire to keep learning. That's why we spend more time on more involving iyun.

That maybe true, but still there are plenty of time to split it to learn Bekius 4 hours a day, and as your Bekius improves, (which must include a lot of reviewing, naturaly) your appitite for learning it would improve with it. It's like all things, that the beggining is hard (Kol Haschalos Kashos) and you don't see great results day to day. But if you keep it up, what you can have after some time is priceless, it's worth the effort to try.

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He brings as proof: The Gemara relates that even Rabah and R' Yosef [2 of the Roshei HaYeshivos in Surah around at the same time period] that one was a sinai (to acquire bredth - bekiyus) whereas the other was oker harim (to be very sharp - to learn b'iyun). If Rabah and R' Yosef, 2 of the greatest Amoraim had such different m'halchim in derech halimud, all the more so ourselves, nowadays,

Well RAbah is not a good proof for nowadays. He knew all Shas well. We see his opinions are all over Shas (and not only the 1st few Blatt of "Yeshivasha Mesechtas" ) It just that R' Yosef excelled greatly in knowing every Braisah, even obscured ones. (And even so, we still say Sinai Uddef.) There is deffinitly room for more balance.

Laurence wrote:

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the products of the Israeli yeshivot (since 1967) sound ignorant when they give drashas

I find this hard to believe that when they give Drashas that they can't research the subject they're talking about. Even though they might of not touched that subject in there learning, in my experiance with people who start a subject, that it doesn't take long 'till they're pretty up to date with the subject and has a decent grip on the subject.

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he is taking public monies to do this. I feel let down that I am not getting a real talmud chacham that I want my tax money to go to support.

Even though he might not be as much of a TC, but the actual learning Torah is a great Mitzvah, which is a great Zchus for the whole country (that can use as many Z'chusim as it can muster.) It's still a bargain and much better than the tax money that is given to the dregs of the society, where you're not getting anything out of helping them continue in their anti-social behavour

R' Mitterhoff

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Do you mean that you feel that the Israelis seem to have less bekeyous than the westerners

I think you maybe talking about people in different circles, so it may not be indicutive to your own experiences.

Rav Chaim, good points. I think maybe R' Yaakov's proof wasn't that even Rabah and R' Yosef argued whether or not to learn bekiyus (certainly, as you pointed out they both learned all shas and tons more), rather I think he was simply pointing out (what should be obvious) that the proper derech halimud (the exact balance of what to learn when) is different for every person.

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Originally posted by Rabbi Mitterhoff:
Do you mean that you feel that the Israelis seem to have less bekeyous than the westerners. I am not trying to argue, I just want to clarify what your opinion.

The main difference between non-israeli yeshivot and elsewhere is selection. Abroad only a few percent learn full time and they are selected. In Israel, whole communities go to yeshiva and the important thing is haskapha. Well if you are bright, but you can be the best with little effort, one doesn't reach high levels.
The extreme antagonism to secular studies and to lets call modern scholarship techniques, makes for poor drashas and lessons. Unfortunately, even the religious zionist yeshivot are going in this direction.
Examples:
Someone gives a shiur from the stencil of R. Wasserman. A lot of new stuff has appeared since then, so what R. Wasserman considered a chidush, it now known to be a misprint.
For some reason, darshanim feel they have to bring in some science but it sounds ridiculous or use historical sources which have long been known to be false, e.g. the manuscript found in a bottle in a ghetto putatively written by a Chasid but really written by someone who lived during the war in south america.

My shul has teachers from every group, Litai, Chassidic, and Sephardic. I have participated in science forums for Israeli rabbis but it is really hard to explain DNA to someone who has no idea of what an element is. I have learnt in Litai and other yeshivot in Israel so I have a fair idea on what is going on.

As to how public monies are spent, there is only so much money for specific objectives. Only so much money can be provided for the orphans, widows and destitute. If people use up the welfare budget to learn in the yeshivot, it is at the expense of the poor.

Another point often heard is that if you use up your yeshiva budget for everyone, then there is less money to support the best and the brightest.

Aryeh Shore

1)without having seen reb yaakov's idea, it seems he isn't trying to state a chidush but to reformulate the common understanding (and fairly obvious) idea that "leolom yilmad odom bemokom shelibo chofetz" - 'on should always learn where he wants to' - means not only the subject he wishes but also literally the place, yeshiva, and method of learning (derech halimud).
2)having said that, there were always some methods of learning that were criticized by gedolei yisroel as being WRONG or at least overly used even though other gedloei yisroel advocated them and obviously 'wanted' those methods (e.g. pilpul in poland 450 years ago despite r' yaacov charif being a strong advocate , however because it was advocated by gedolei yisroel it became so entrenched to last much longer).
how much more so with the way iyun is learned today, which criticized by virtualy all gedolei yisroel from all walks of life (though not for anything intrisically wrong with the method as some felt was with the pilpul method but rather for the extra emphasis plced on it to the near exclusion of bekius)
that is just a general comment on the situation.

A seperate point that was mentioned but not given enough attention is the fact that the divide between iyun and bekius to the extent that it is understood today is quite artificial,
this was underscored to an extreme by R' Yosef Rozin ("The Rogatchover") who showed that "more kamus is a better eichus" (greater quantity in itself brings about a greater quality) from various sources in shas and applied this to learning as well that bekius brings about a much greater iyun.
two geonim of our generation who applied this method come to mind:the author of 'agan hasahar' the 'gaon mavhil' R' Chayim Zimerman and the Last Lubavitcher Rebbe (though he added another facet to this idea by combining it with the brisker method of reb chaim and his father derech of diyuk to a totaly novel application of "bekius is iyun").
there is much more to write but shabbos and yomtov come first
(the Rogatchover used to say shabbos was his most dificult day because on any other day when he would be overwhelmed by chidushei torah he would write them down and thus limit the flow of ideas to what he was writing - though anyone familiar with the style of his writing will see it didn't limit much- while on shabbos being that one isn't permitted to write he was constanty overwhelmed by new ideas)
Shabbat Shalom, Kabalat Hatorah Besimcha