I was at a party and I heard someone tell his friend that "today there is no such thing as "Hamotzi" anymore! This is regarding the case for and against Mezonos bread.

Some questions:

1. Is this because people are lazy and looking for a loophole?

2. Is it a mayzid, i.e. someone who does a sin on purpose, when a person says that there is no such thing as Hamotzi anymore?

3. What can one do to help stop this scam?

4. Are mashgichim and hashgachos at fault for putting a stamp of approval on this idea?

B"H

Rebbe Sam,

Were you at a party with Sephardim? If so, this will explain why they hold the opinion that bread (when it is only slightly sweetened) is viewed by them as "Mezonos."

However, the Ashkenazim and the Yemenites will bless "Hamotzee Lechem Min Ha-Aretz" over such bread, and will bench after eating it. (Only if the bread was made to be eaten like a cake- that is, sweetened to a greater extent, and with the usual condiments and spices- will we all bless over it "Mezonos.")

David

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Were you at a party with Sephardim? If so, this will explain why they hold the opinion that bread (when it is only slightly sweetened) is viewed by them as "Mezonos."

Happens to be that it was a mixture of all customs there. And does "sweetened" include - garlic? And what about the concept of "kovea seuda" - like pizza, if one eats a certain amount, whether it is 2 or 3 or more slices, according to one's custom, the mezonos changes to hamotzi. Therefore, if one were to eat meat with bread, isn't that a "meal" - it was at lunch time.

B"H

Rebbe Sam,

Kovea Seudah קובע סעודה is a teaching accepted by all, and would depend on how much a person ate. But in the case that you cited where people had blessed "Mezonos" over bread, obviously they did not intend to eat the required quantity that would make it "Kivias Seudah." Eating meat along with cake does not mean that there was "Kivias Seudah" on the cake. Rather, one would have to eat a certain amount of cake (or sweet bread, in the opinion of some) for it to be "Kivias Seudah."

By the way, most poskim give a standard of 230 grams of cake or cookies, or the like, that would require "Kivias Seudah." Rambam, on the other hand, gives no standard for such things (neither does he liken "Kivias Seudah" to "Achilas Pras"), and it would seem that, with Rambam, fixing a supper on cake and cookies, &c. would depend upon each man's own eating habits. I heard this statement from my own teacher, Rabbi Yoseph Qafih z"l.

David

Sam,
I thought the mezono bread, such as the rolls one finds on the airlines, are intended to avoid washing, not bentching. So it doesn't really matter as far as bentching is concerned....one still needs to bentch.

If one must bentch it means one must wash

My concern is for those people who think that they are getting away with not washing, and if and when they have to, and where the fault lies; and what can be done to make sure that correct halachos are "advertised"!

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
My concern is for those people who think that they are getting away with not washing, and if and when they have to, and where the fault lies; and what can be done to make sure that correct halachos are "advertised"!

Rebbe Sam,

A person who wanted to eat the least amount of bread would still require washing his hands, yet without saying a blessing over those hands. If he wanted to eat bread and make a blessing over his handwashing, he would have to eat as much as an egg's-bulk of bread. Less than this, he washes his hands before eating the bread, but does not say a blessing over his hands.

If he eats an olive's-bulk of bread, or more, he is required to make a bentch over the meal; Less than an olive's-bulk of bread, he is exempt from making a bentch over the meal. But whether he makes a bentch over the meal, or does not make a bentch over the meal, he is always required to wash his hands whenever eating any amount of bread. This is all explained in the Mishna Berura of the late Hefetz Chaim O.B.M.

David

Reb David,

All is good and clear in what you are saying. However, what about all the companies who are advertising mezonos bread to the point where people are comfortable in saying that there is no such thing as non-mezonos bread? What do we do to stop that, that is what I'm trying to get at.

B"H

Rebbe Sam,

If "Mezonos Bread" has led people to err about ordinary bread, it is a matter that will have to be dealt with by the community where it is a problem. Here, in Israel, we do not have this problem. Most people recognize bread when they see it, and they recognize cake when they see it.

If the people have seen ordinary bread before, and have washed and bentched over the bread, I find it strange that they would now call all bread "Mezonos Bread." If they have no religious upbringing, then they should be educated. Teach them that only if there is a rabbinic tag on the bread, calling it "Mezonos Bread," this would be the only justification for their treating the bread like mezonos, (unless the person is a Sephardi and recognizes the bread as being sweet, in which case, for him it is mezonos).
Is there any other way of dealing with this problem?

David

I think what Sam- is getting at is that in certain Jewish communities there are loaves of bread- such as whole wheat bread for example- that are used for making sandwhichs- however, they are made with the materials for mezonos- apple juice etc- and thus are technically mezonos- even though they are NOT sweet... Some people will make a sandwhich and make a mezonos over the sandwhich- even though it is techinically a meal...

I think it simply is a lack of education on the part of the consumer when they make this mistake.

David, Rav Kacev,
If one needs to wash and bentch on mezonot bread, what's the purpose of mezonot bread?

If you eat a piece of Mezonos bread on its own, then you make the Mezonos Bracha.

If, however, your are "kove'a" [fix] a meal on the Mezonos bread, then you have to wash and make HaMotzi and recite the full Birchas HaMazon afterwards.

This is not a universally held opinion, as far as I am aware. I heard that the reason Kedassiah (the chareidi Kashrus authority in London) allow Mezonos rolls with airline meals is that the late Rav Padwah zt"l, who was the head of the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations in London, ruled that one did not have to wash, etc. if one ate them with the meal.

B"H

Avi d'Isaeli,

If I recall correctly, no one said you must wash and bentch over Mezonos bread. Mezonos (cakes, pies, biscuits, Crepe suzettes, etc.) do not require hand-washing, nor bentching as we do over regular bread. They only require a bracha before eating them (בורא מיני מזונות) and a bracha known as מעין שלוש after eating them.

Our friend, Bracha, has explained to us that, in some places, bread is made by kneading its dough with fruit juice. This makes the bread "Mezonos" as far as its blessings are concerned, and does not require hand-washing. Rebbe Sam has said that the so-called "Mezonos bread" has created a problem in the United States, insomuch that many a good persons will now come along and take up ordinary bread that require handwashing and bentching, and treat it as though it were "Mezonos bread," without washing their hands and bentching over it.
This is a problem that has to do with education, and must be dealt with by the community.

David

So-called egg-matzah is made with fruit juice instead of water I believe. It may therefore be in the same category as mezonos bread in that regard. And by the way, it can be a problem for pesach since its not clear if flour will rise in fruit juice faster than in water.

the first time I heard of mezonos bread was when a Rosh Yeshiva picked up a sandwich at a gas station vending machine at the start of a trip he was taking us on.

Its not clear if he might have actually washed before coming into the car and I did not hear which bracha he said, nor did I hear what he actually bentched afterward.

This Rosh Yeshiva similarly told his talmidim they could rely upon the eruv in his community, but he himself was stringent and relied upon no eruv.

And this same Rosh Yeshiva told a group of his talmidim at a nearby pizza shop that if one intends to eat only up to 2 slices, even if they come to eat a 3rd slice, it is mezonos. If one intends to eat 3 or more, they should wash first and give a full bentching.

Over the years that I have looked into the matter of so-called mezonos bread, the halachic authorities I've discussed it with seem to espouse the view that its a misnomer, and if its used like bread, should be treated like bread.

I remember hearing the analogy to pound cake, that if sliced and used like bread, it would be treated as bread.

Could it be that there is room within the halacha for a lenient view that juice-and-flour cake used like bread can still be treated like cake, and that there is a stringent view like the above?

That some so-called mezonos-bread sandwiches can be used on an airline where it is not convenient to get to a washing station without getting trapped in the aisle around the food cart, or otherwise, and not be treated like bread, does not support a view of widespread confusion:

Just because some cake sandwiches exist, why would someone come to think that all bread is cake, and exempt from the additional requirements of washing and bentching for a meal?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
So-called egg-matzah is made with fruit juice instead of water I believe. It may therefore be in the same category as mezonos bread in that regard.

And if a certain amount is eaten during a meal, then one needs to wash. I don't think that there is carte blanche to just say Mezonos on such kind of food and forget about it. Isn't it true, rob, that if one is going to make a meal out of the Mezonos, that one needs to wash?

quote:

And by the way, it can be a problem for pesach since its not clear if flour will rise in fruit juice faster than in water.

That's why on the box of the ones I have seen, it says specifically to be used by the very young children, and for people who cannot eat regular matzoh (where a Rav should be consulted first).

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
This Rosh Yeshiva similarly told his talmidim they could rely upon the eruv in his community, but he himself was stringent and relied upon no eruv.

There are many people I know that will say that the eruv is kosher so that people will be able to use it, if they choose to do so. That doesn't mean that one has to.

quote:

Over the years that I have looked into the matter of so-called mezonos bread, the halachic authorities I've discussed it with seem to espouse the view that its a misnomer, and if its used like bread, should be treated like bread.

Then these "halachic authorities" that you are referring to, need to do something about this issue, because a lot of people are doing the wrong thing. Some are doing it on purpose, i.e. denying in their mind, that it is not hamotzi.

quote:

I remember hearing the analogy to pound cake, that if sliced and used like bread, it would be treated as bread.

I don't see how you can have the analogy at all. Cake is cake, until you need to wash on it, because you have turned it into a meal.

quote:

Could it be that there is room within the halacha for a lenient view that juice-and-flour cake used like bread can still be treated like cake, and that there is a stringent view like the above?

There must be as the Hashgachos and Mashgichim are certifying these items. But there needs to be more education about this. When at 12:30 PM, a person enters a store and buys an egg-mezonos sandwich, are you going to tell me that it is a snack or a meal? If it is a meal, doesn't he need to WASH?

quote:

That some so-called mezonos-bread sandwiches can be used on an airline where it is not convenient to get to a washing station without getting trapped in the aisle around the food cart, or otherwise, and not be treated like bread, does not support a view of widespread confusion:

If it is Hamotzi, and a person can't wash on it, if I remember correctly, that person still says Hamotzi on it, but should not touch the bread with their hands.

quote:

Just because some cake sandwiches exist, why would someone come to think that all bread is cake, and exempt from the additional requirements of washing and bentching for a meal?

Why would anyone make heterim for themself, if not to make it easier for them. My point in all this discussion that I started, is for an opening to help people be aware of this problem and should make sure that what they are purchasing is what it is and make the correct bracha on it (and wash if need be).

And what Bracha do our Sefardi chaveirim around here make on regular Matza the whole year round (apart from Pesach)?

Yisroel, David,
According to your shayla, if you ate mezonot bread on the airplane, what would you do (from the bracha to the bentching)? I'm just looking for the process, for clarification purposes because you leave me with the impression that the mezonot bread is significant only if it's eaten by itself.