B"H

We all know that to transgress any commandment in the Torah in order to preserve one's own life is permitted. That is, any commandment except three: Murder, fornication and idolatry.

The source for murder and fornication, and why one would be expected to give himself over to death, and not to transgress by an act of either fornication or murder, is found in our Talmud, Sanhedrin 74a.

As for murder, it is simply a thing of rationale and logic. Who says that your blood is redder than the other guy's blood, or that the other guy should forfeit his life in order that you might live? Rather, the right to life is the same for all men and women.

As for fornication, the Rabbis learned this from a teaching in the Torah, Devorim 22:25-26, "..for it is as a man who arises against his neighbour and murders him, etc." The Torah has correlated two ideas - viz., raping a betrothed virgin and murder. The Torah says that rape is tantamount to murder.

By this comparison, the Rabbis took it one step further. They said that just as one is permitted to inflict injury to a man who pursues after another in order to kill him (in an effort to prevent the murder), so too, a man is permitted to inflict injury to that man who pursues after a betrothed virgin in order to violate her chastity. For the Torah makes murder and rape equal. Likewise, just as it is not permitted to murder a man who is innocent in order that you might preserve your own life, so too, it is not permitted to rape (engage in any act of fornication) in order that you might preserve your own life.

The lesson here is that where the Torah brings two correlative ideas, we must apply the same general rules to both ideas.

As for idolatry, I have not found the source. Can someone provide me with a source?

Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

R' David,

It's on that same daf 74a in Sanhedrin brought in the name of Rabbi Eliezer that "You shall love Hahsme with all you heart, with all your Soul and with all your might."

B"H

Thank-you, Rebbe Yisroel. For some reason, I did not connect the statement
ואהבת את ה' אלהיך בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך
with giving up one's life on account of his great love for G-d. That explains everything. Thanks!

David

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

We all know that to transgress any commandment in the Torah in order to preserve one's own life is permitted. That is, any commandment except three: Murder, fornication and idolatry. ...

If I am not mistaken, Bnai Noach are not commanded on kiddush HaShem (I.e. they are not required by the Torah to sacrifice their lives rather than violate the three cardinal sins, which is in contrast to the Jewish obligation.

B"H
Thanks, Aharon!

By the way, while perusing briefly through the leafed pages of "Sefer Ha-Chinuch" of Rabbi Aharon Halevi, Mitzvah # 296, I discovered that he gives a different reason why we are commanded to give-up our lives for the sake of G-d (if it should ever come to that). He learns this by way of an inference from minor to major premise (Kal ve-chomer). He says, "just as with ordinary kings and servants, we find that the king's subjects are often willing to go to the extreme of death in order to perform the order of their king, how much more then should we be willing to die in order to perform G-d's injunctions (viz., of not exchanging Him for another), since we were created in order to serve Him."

David

This is a Gemara in Sanhedrin 74b-75a (and is paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf)

4) ARE "BENEI NO'ACH" OBLIGATED IN "KIDUSH HASH-M"? (a) Question: Are Benei No'ach commanded about Kidush Hash-m? etc.

(d) Answer #2 (Rav Ada bar Ahavah): "...Yislach Hash-m...Adoni...Nish'an Alai v'Hishtachavayasi" (Na'aman accepted to be a Ger Toshav, and mentioned that he must bow with his master to idolatry) - Elisha agreed, "Lech l'Shalom";

1. Version #1 (Our text, Rashi) If he is commanded about Kidush Hash-m, Elisha should have protested!

2. Rejection: Yisraelim would not see it, perhaps Benei No'ach are commanded to Mekadesh Hash-m in front of Yisraelim.

3. Version #2 (Tosfos) If he is commanded about Kidush Hash-m, Elisha should have explained that he is only permitted in private, not in public!

So it would be a Machlokes between Rashi, where the question isn't answered, and Tosfos, that the questioned is answered and are not Chayiv to give up their life. The Rambam in H. Milachim 10:2 agrees with Tosfos.

Rav. Chai
About the idolatry issue--I had a discussion with my father and the following hypothetical situation arose during our discussion:

A man comes into you home and says (with a gun to your head) that you must burn the TOrah in order to save your own life. Do you do it?

My answer : No, because to do so is idolatry (my own life is worshipped over the value of HaSh-m's word of life), and because I don't think I could do so, regardless of whether it was permitted for my life's sake.

His answer : That HaSh-m's word cannot be destroyed, so to save his life, G-d would forgive;especially if the lives of his family were threatened as well.

Who is right, Rebbe?

Yocheved

Your father is right, but not because of his reasoning (V'lo Mitamei)

Burning a Sefer Torah is not prohibitted because it's Idol worshipping (That is only reserved for real idol worshipping.) But rather because Lo Saseh kein La'Hashem Eilokecha. (When Hashem commanded us to destroy the idols he said that we shouldn't do it to Him, which refers to burning his name. So there is no need to give up your life for that Mitzvah (unless there was 10 Jews present, then you need to Sanctify his name for any Mitzvah that people force you in order to try to prevent you doing Judaism (and not only for their own pleasure)

There is an interesting Gemara in Sukka 53a (and makkos 11a) When king David was digging for a spring for the Temple, he hit one that was going to flood the whole world. he had a question is he allowed to write a special name of Hashem that would be put on the water and would make it go down. This might be prohibited, since the name of Hashem would be erased. Achitofel said if the name of Hashem could be erased in order to bring harmony back in a marriage (by a Soteh) of course it could be erased to save the world.

In reference to "Bnai Noach", what is Halachically permissable for them to learn and/or be taught?

If I were to be killed for refusing the Sefer Torah, wouldn't that be sanctifying G-d's name? Or is that what you were talking about with respect to the presence of ten?

The obligation to give up one's life to sanctify one's life, not for the greatness of the sin itself, but for the sanctification, is only in the following conditions

1) you're forced to do the sin in order to get you to do a sin (and not for his own pleasure)

2) Only if you're among 10 Jews (a Minyen.)

Otherwise we say save your life.

thankyou for clarifying that. I am not sure that one could accurately discern whether the man with the gun to one's head was forcing one to burn the Torah for the sake of making one sin, or for self-satisfaction; ,my guess would be that the motives would be for both of those reasons and more--along with the desire to slander HaSh-m, and to humiliate/dominate another person, as well as to gratify his own commanders in making himself look good (given it was wartime). I could, I think remember the proviso of the presence of ten under such a circumstance, but I would be hard pressed to go to G-d afterward and say that I thought the guy only wanted to enjoy himself by my having to burn the Torah. I don't think that would ease my conscience--especially if I felt the above intentions were true.
Yocheved

I think intent is evident from the context of the request. the Gemara gives the example of being forced to harvest fodder on Shabbos. If told to feed it to his animal, then it's evident that he wants it for his personal use. If he tells you to throw it in the river, then he's just trying to force you to sin.

So too here. simply, if he tells you to burn it without any personal benefits, then it would seem that he only wants to make you sin. If you were in the wilderness and he wants it for fuel for the fire (and there is no ready wood available and he doesn't want to use anything else,) then you can assume that he wants it for his personal enjoyment.

My question is when would it ever happen (besides murder).
In the case of fornication, a man is consider as that he must want to do it to be aroused. (they didn't have viagra). In the case of woman, she is considered passive. The case given in the gemara, is very limited, the man claims his doctors tell him he will die if he doesn't possess a certain married woman. They said let him die.
Similarly, with Avodah Zarah, the intent is in one's heart. If you don't want to worship the idol, you can bow down as it is not avodah zarah. The only case would be analagous if you needed a piece of an idol or worshipped tree for your health,
That a non-jew does not have to do kiddush Hashem is pretty clear from the Yerushalmi Shaviit

ישראל מצווין על קידוש השם ואין העכו"ם מצווין על קידוש השם

Quote " a man is consider as that he must want to do it to be aroused."

This is not true, since there is no Kishoy Elah Midaas. And besides, him going on her is a Maaseh.

Quote "Similarly, with Avodah Zarah, the intent is in one's heart. If you don't want to worship the idol, you can bow down as it is not avodah zarah."

This is not true. This is only if he already bowed without intention, then he's not Chayiv. But one is Michuyav to give up his life not to look like he's bowing down to the Avodah Zara. (There is a side in Tosfos that if nobody ever bows down to him only because they fear him (like Haman) but nobody ever worships him, then you may not need to give up your life.)

That is fascinating and clearly en pointe. Will you tell me where that is?
Thankyou
Yocheved

Can you read Hebrew??

On a man being forced to commit adultery
Yebamot נ"ג עמוד ב
http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/kiteze/zvi.html
see comment 11

My previous remarks are based on Tosfos Yevomos 53b D"H Ein Ones and in Sanhedrin 61b D"H Rava

Over there it says that in 2 cases that there is no obligation for the man to give up their life. It's saying when the man is doing no action. In both cases the Goyim need to bring the man to the woman while he's stiff like a board. If he needed to go to the woman, then he needs to give up his life in all instances.

The first practical case was when the man was already Niskasha when the Goy brings him. The other case is that he knows that he definitely won't be Niskasha. In all other cases, if the whole job was not done by the Goy, or if he wasn't Nishkasha and will become Mikusha, then he needs to give up his life.

quote:

Nishkasha and will become Mikusha

Can these words be translated?