Do you think its valid to say that average person who learnt in yeshiva feels like he's doing something wrong by going to work and not staying in the yeshiva enviorment?

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What is the purpose of man? Is it not to bring down holiness to the physical world? Therefore, is it not accurate to say that the studies are the foundation of the correct way to bring down the light to the physical world through physical work.

hi, I appretiate your quick responce. I see your a new member like myself.I believe I understand your way of thinking whitch I dont argue with.what I am bringing up is that socially there are feeling of failour living in a very frum orthodox community to comply with
norm like in every society.My point is that there should'nt be such feeling,and if there is there needs to be some sort of change in the way some yeshiva's give over the ideal way of a jews lifestyle.

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This is a very important subject and needs a lot of attention! Whether a person should leave learning and go to work is very delicate decision and each case is unique. As far as the "guilt" goes I think that if the person has done a deep chesbone hanefesh (soul searching) and asked his Rabbi there should be no guilt. The problem arises because many people leave learning for the wrong reasons and it stems from their relationship to HaShem and the learning itself, so of course they feel guilty. I would like to post a lot more on this subject because it is very relevant to our times. In the mean time here is quote from the sefer the Duties of the Heart,The Gates of Faith,Chapter 3:

It states there that there are two reasons why man needs to exert himself in order to obtain a livelihood:
1. As a test to man, to see whether he will go about achieving his needs in the proper way and not deviate from the will of G-d in order reach them.
2. If man was provided all of his needs in an open and free manner he would rebel and spend his time chase after pleasure.

Therefore he writes: "If, however, a person gives priority to the service of God and resolves to fear Him; trusts in Him in all his interests, religious and secular; turns away from the despicable things and aspires to good qualities, does not rebel when in comfort nor incline toward leisure; Is not swayed by his baser instincts nor seduced by the enchanting things of the world - then he will be relieved of the burden of seeking and searching for a livelihood, since the two reasons [for obliging him to do so] that have been mentioned, trial and rebellion in the midst of prosperity, will have become inapplicable to him. His livelihood will come to him without trouble or weariness, to the extent of his needs and requirements, as it is written: "God will not let the righteous go hungry"

To Rabbi Mitteroff,
I appretiate your responce to the subject on hand.I am as well happy to hear that you consider this matter importent discuss.I believe this subject is just a stepping stone
to many contemporary issues which are not really spoken about in the open. I think its about time these issues are dealt with and where change is needed,should be imented.

In regards to what you said that the guilt comes from not learning for proper reasons,I agree this is a posibility but there are pressures that are dificult to overcome.To be more specific where I used to learn, lakewood there are numerous people who wold be more productive if they would start to explore the work field ,either in the torah world or in profession.why dont they?This is because they are comfortable where they are and would feel uncomfortable doing anything else. Even a person who has parnasa now should he wait till 30-35 to start seeing what type of work to do? He will have to take what ever job comes his way regardless how much he hates it.By this time he may have a large family so learning a profession may be out of the question.The point is "Hachachom einov Beroshov". I realize this is not issue which could be given one rule for everyone,but if you think this is a issue which hit alot of people so lets try to understand where the problem lies.

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I Believe the problem exists when a community creates an environment in which all men are expected to devote their lives to learning, and frowning upon those who do not. This is an unrealistic expectation and creates a situation where people who would be more productive going out to work, feel themselves pressured to remain in the Beis Medrash, at the cost of their own happiness and the welfare of thier families.
Devoting one's life to spiritual pursuits is a very commendable objective, but one that requires great devotion and sacrifice. It shold be left to those who are on a level to do so, and not be made into an expected norm.

even thogh I agree there are people that stay in kollel past their prime. but by removing the pressure and making going to work an equel alternative, or even getting just a few "extra brownie points" for staying ,will discourage others who have the ability and talent to learn alot longer and leave to the buissness world ,because after all, it's an exceptable alternative

People who have the drive and desire to commit their lives to Torah,will be willing to do so without any pressure. Futhermore they should not receive any pressure from society to take such a commitment upon themselves. It should be a personal decision. All such pressure accomplishes is keeping people who would be more productive and happy elsewhere from doing so.

Even though there are people that can learn lishma and do not need any peer pressure to keep on learning, most people need the benefit of positive peer presure to keep them going. This is why this generation's B'nai Torah stay more time in learning then the past. they gain by their sviva. If by removing the peer presure it will deminish the drive for an average person to accomplish.
you are right that there are many people that stay in kollel way after they are burnt out and i've seen many of them in my time. maybe the solution is to have roshei kollel to be on top of the situation and if a man is burnt out incourage him that it's time to leave (even though in a place like Lakewood it would be hard to do)

I would agree with you that peer pressure is a good thing where it would motivate people to strive for greater heights. However for those who are not on that madreiga,they should not be made to feel as failures if they feel they can be more productive elsewhere,or are unwilling to accept upon themselves a life of aniyus.

Since with the above argument we're not convincing each other, I'll take up another angle of it. I reject the notion that our society makes them feel as failures per se. Our society, baruch Hashem, has alot of chashivus for talmidai chachumem and limud hatorah, therefor to be special one needs to be one. They don't look at non kollel members as failures but rather as average people. There are some people that can't stand the thought that they might be average people. Thus alot of people, wether they are or not, concider themselves a lamden or to a point daas torah because it wouldn't feel right for them not to be the elite. I've known many of 9th graders who think they'll be a rosh yeshiva when they grow up, even though they don't have to much talent or hasmadah. On the other hand, I know alot of well adjusted people that spent their years learning and when the time came to leave the bais medresh, they did so without any qualms that now they'll be just ordinary b'nai torah.
But their will always be people that can't except that they are average. How can they admit to themselves and others (including his wife who was suporting him for years and had to produce 40 or 50 grand for a dowery to marry such a"talmud chachum).
If these people would be in a different society, let say one that is machshev material wealth, they would be acting in the same irresponsable way. They would spend more then the have and be in dept for buying a house and car and making fancy simchas so in order people shouldn't think he's an average "shlepper" and never "made it"

I believe that statements you have made here are indicative of one of the problems in the Yeshivah world I have been rederring to.

You have said that people who have left kollel are looked at as "average".I think to believe such a thing is both unfair and untrue. Is a person who spends his day making a living,and then devotes his nights and free time to Torah only considered "average"? Is this person less of a Tzaddik than one who is in kollel but is not as scrupulous with his time?

Is a person who spends his day, providing for his family ,working honestly, creating a kiddush Hashem in all his dealings,supporting Torah Mosdos, and spending his free time in the beis medrash to be considered "average"?

We cannot just judge a person's chashivus based on whether he is in Kollel or not,rather his deeds in entirety must be taken into consideration. No person should be felt to be "average by leaving kollel.If we would all realize this , it would go a long was to alleviate many of the hardships and problems in Jewish society today.

before I write my response, Iwould like to make clear at what point we are arguing and on what we agree. I agree fully that if he is not learning like one is expected to do in Kollel he should leave. You're right he's no more a tzadik if he stays in kollel then leaving it. I think we're also in agreement that if someone is learning well in kollel, unless under dire circumstances, he shouldn't leave and he is more of a tzadik by staying then leaving.
When I wrote that a working jew is average, it was not meant as an insult, but the way you discription of the kiddush hashem that one could do and being kovea itim doesn't it discribe most frumme yidden? Boruch Hashem we have an omicha kulum Tzadikim. It's a mathimatic impossibility that all frumme yidden are above average frumme yidden. Even if he would be a tzadik, but is he better then the next guy who is also a tzadik. That would make him average. I know someone that's a rabbi in an very out of town place. He could of left and go to a place where there is a real frum comunity but didn't. while he was there he was the cream of the city, by moving he would be an average person in a regular comunity.
If the person's need is to stick out and to be greater then other people, you can't tell him you can be a tzadik even by being average, he couldn't care. His objective is not to be a tzadik, it's to stick out and be noticed.
(I know people with the oppisite problem. They're to afraid to stick out, they'll avoid being great in order not to stick out)
In conclusion, these people are in a state of denial. I don't think they even look down at other people who leave. The other people are not on that madrega and you can't blame them, not everybody is cut out for it. It's when they have to look at themselves and say I'm not the elite and I'm not on the madrega is what's painfull to them.

Here is the famous Rambam:

Rambam,the Laws of Shimitah and Yoval 13:
And not only the tribe of Levi alone, rather any person in the world whose spirit moves him and he understands from his knowledge to separate himself before Hashem to serve him and to work for him and to know Hashem and to go straight in the ways of G-d. And to remove from his neck the expectations of what people normally request of him. This is considered to be the holy of holies and Hashem will be his portion and his inheritance for ever and ever. And he will merit in this world that he will have sufficient means to live just as the Cohanim and the Levim. This is what David said (Palms 16:5) The Lord is my allotted portion and my cup; You guide my destiny.

Notice that he says "any person in the world whose spirit moves him and he understands from his knowledge to separate himself"

There are very numerous factors which may move a mans spirit and heart. Was this person trained to learn properly? Did he ever taste the excitement and sweetness of learning Torah B'Eyon. Has he spent hours learning chazals and hearing Mussar shmoozim on the value and beauty of Torah? The world turns around a mans decision. As they said in kelm "My will is my sword". But what do man's decisions turn around? I think it is impotent to foster an strong environment of Erech Hatorah (value of Torah). Without it we would be lost. As far as the quilt goes, I think its a healthy thing that will lead a person to find his own quality time and portion in Hashems Torah. Anyone who is honestly striving to be a servant to Hashem will eventually find the true balance that will lead him in the way which Hashem created him for.

The question is whether there is anyone in this generation whose is on the madrega of the person the Rambam is speaking about,let alone entire communities. We see the Rambam himself took on a profession. If the Rambam didn't consider himself on that madrega,can any of us?

Remember, the Rambam's shita is that it is prohibitted not to have a job with the learning (though he's a daas yuchid in the rishonim and R' Moshe in a t'shuva says that even like the Rambam that today there ia an eis lasos lahashem for people to learn without a job) so it has nothing to do with madrega.
I also don't see the whole communities being in kollel. It is still a small minority that stay for more then 5 years, which is not to hard.
Thirdly, maybe Rabbi kacev didn't notice my last reply that's before Rabbi Mitterhoff's, because untill now he always has a response for it and I'm interested what his reply would be
I also would like to hear what the Olam would think if there is a way to revive a kollel career, like tweaking at his derech halimud, changing it to give "change of scenery"/ I know a big Talmud Chuchum who for a year went on a "sabbatical" learning Nach with Malbim, and now, 25 years later still learning strong.

The point I was making still remains. How can the Rambam be brought as a source for those who remain in Kollel, when the Rambam himself holds this is not permitted.

Rav Moshe in his teshuvos in fact(Orach Chayyim 111) writes,a person is not only allowed but is obligated to engage in business or a trade for his sustenance; it is forbidden to say " I will not work and g-d will somehow provide my sustenance

In reply to the previous post of Rav Chayyim, it seems to me dividing up Klal Yisroel into two categories--with the people in kollel being the elite,and the bnei Torah who go to work representing the average members of Klal Yisroel is much too simplistic.

There are many aspects of a person's life which much be taken into account,to measure exactly what madreiga he is on. There are bnei Torah who are working, who are bigger tzadikim and on a higher madrega than many who are in kollel.

To say that one who leaves kollel to make a parnassah is leaving the status of the elite and joining the "average" group would be untrue and unfair.

Of course thre could be working people that are bigger Tzadikim then in kollel. For an extreme example, if the working man fasts Bahav while the kollel guy is a wife beater. (of course it doesn't have to be so extreme, but the point is made). However, leaving kollel is not the cause of the Tzidkus. I'm not disagreeing that there are reasons to leave kollel, like there are reasons to get an amputation, but it doesn't make it ideal. you, of course, are not suggesting that anybody who has the ability to stay in kollel to leave it so he can be a tzadik in the workplace. We cannot afford to be "politicaly correct" and say everybody is basically the same in order not to offend the people that can't do better. The people who you're trying to convince them to leave kollel won't buy this notion.

What it comes down to I believe is the following. People who are on the madreiga of staying in Kollel do not have to be pressured to stay there. If they do need to be pressured that is a sign they are not on that madreiga. All that pressure will accomplish is keeping people there who would be better off making a livlihood