In Israel today, would the establishment of a public fund that would buy produce, which grows on its own during the shmitta year, be an acceptable solution to the farmers in Israel.....so that every Jew can get free produce that year?
Avi

Avi,
What you are suggesting is actually is very similar to Otzar Beit Din.
Otzar Beit Din is allready mentioned in the Mishna.
Basically since most people don't have the time to go get the produce on their own from the field, a Beit Din does it for us.
We pay the Beit Din for the expenses involved in getting the produce but not for the produce itself.
The Beit Din needs to hire workers to get the produce. It is permitted to hire the farmers themselves to work for them. However the farmers must get paid for their work and not for the produce. (As produce does not belong to them on the year of shmita and it can't be sold)
Thus they must have a fixed sallary or sallary per time worked.

This is the best solution for Shmita. Rabbis from all streams (Charedi and Dati Leumi) agree on this. However is has thus far had limited success because there was a lack of interest in it.
I believe it is due to lack of awareness on the importance of observing the mitzva of Shmita.

Most people simply think of Shmita as a problem. They are only concerned that the produce they bring home is "Kosher". The Dati Leumi use loop hole of Heter Mechiara which is a very bad loop hole. But it is kosher for them. The Charedim buy produce from the Arabs and thus are giving financial support for terrorist activity. But they consider it kosher lemehadrin. So no is actualy keeping shmita.

There are other solutions that need to be applied as well in addition to Otzar Beit Din.

A fund for Farmers is also a good Idea.
One idea is that in the 6 years prior to Shmita those who keeps kosher will only buy produce from those who keep shmita. The Rabanut or other Hechsher will only allow Kosher stores to have produce from those who commit to keep Shmita. The price of this produce will be slightly more expensive (10-15%). This extra 10-15% will go into the Shmita fund and will be given to the farmers on the Shmita year.

On the shmitta year the farmer can the year off to study Torah and live of this fund. He can also work part time or full time for the Otzar Beit Din.

In addition we need to put more effort into saving produce from the 6th year. Today with modern freezers it should be much easier than in the past.

Finally in those cases where we might still need to rely on some specific produce from goyim, we will import produce that comes from other countries, but not from the arabs.


This type of plan can only really work if it gets the full support from all the Rabbis and the whole religous public.

Many Dati Leumi Rabbis today are trying to cut down on Heter Mechira and only use it when necessary. However this is not good enought because as long as we have an option to have Heter Mechira which there is no need for other solutions.

Thus Heter Mechira needs to be completely cancelled, no produce is to come from the Gaza Arabs, and imported produce from other countries will only be used when other options are not available.

I just noticed arutz sheva has an article discussing this.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/121676

Avi, I think anything that will promote the observance of Shemittah is a good idea; the question is how to implement it.

One thing I recalled, though, is that the commandments regarding Shemittah are given for the land, not the nation, of Israel. In other words, the land should rest, no matter who has it and no matter who works on it - Jews, or Arabs, or even Russians.

The problem is that it even with a treasury fund for Shemittah implementation, it will hit the Israeli agricultural exports really hard, unless certain precautions are taken.

quote:

The problem is that it even with a treasury fund for Shemittah implementation, it will hit the Israeli agricultural exports really hard, unless certain precautions are taken.

Alex,
You are right. That is the main problem. Otzar Beit Din is not a solution for exports.
A fund that will help those that export is needed in the shmita year. They still face the problem that their buyers will need to find other suppliers and thus may loose these customers in the following year.
If we observe shmita Hashem will reward us and we will succeed. We need to have faith. When we observe the mitzvoth in Eretz Israel it will be a Eretz Chalav Udvas (land of milk and honey)
Out products will be desired and if we give competetive prices the buyers will still be interested.
They can also sign contracts with suppliers in other countries that will provide to those buyers only on shmita year.

In any case just like there is no excuse to work on Shabat even if it hurts business, there is no excuse to desecrate the Shabat of the land.

I think it can be done, as a grassroots (pardon the pun)movement, one farm/kibbutz/moshav at a time. As other farms see that nothing bad happens to the ones that are observing Shmittah, and the land is becoming better there, they possibly will switch to the same modus operandi.

In ancient times, how did we deal with the shmitta issue? I'm sure we exported produce at that time. What happened during the shmitta year?

Didn't HaShem simply give us bumper crops during the sixth year and the first year?
In a halachic state, I suspect there would be no commercial farming during shmitta. We would stand the chance of losing those markets, but then perhaps some nations shouldn't be buying our produce either. It has kedusha.

IMHO, the underlying "problem" with shmitta is that we don't have a halachic state.

Avi

Avi, you can't force economics to obey the laws you pass in Knesset/Congress/Parliament. Economics is driven by bottomline. For examples of experiments with economics driven by idea see the Soviet Union, Vietnam, Mongolia, North Korea, pre-Pinochet Chile, Venezuela (not yet, but getting there).

Businesses have to weigh their rates of return on investment before they decide to make the investment. Business owners need to have it shown to them on a pilot study that it is possible, and that they may break even or make a profit. If they can break even, then ideology will come into play, and the idea may take root. If they see that it drives them out of business, then it will not be implemented.

Alex,

I understand what you are saying. But the land of Israel operates according to different rules. That's why I wanted to know how the ancients did it. When the land observes Torah it "unties" HaShem's hands to do all sorts of wonderful things. As long as we don't have a halachic state we tie HaShem's hands.

I cannot tell you whether the laws of economics will be normal or not, in a halachic state. But I suspect they won't. Don't forget, a halachic state is not just ideology. It's literally bringing the nation under the Shechina. Under such a rule, possibilities are endless. The mere presence of a halachic state reprograms the cosmic order. It's acknowledging to the Kadosh Baruch Hu that we are His people. Decisions made in the Beit Din HaGadol do have cosmic significance, in a halachic state. They are not just parliamentary decisions.

Avi

Avi,

I understand. It would be wonderful to place the land of Israel under the Shechinah. But I am very wary of making global decisions without the acceptance by the majority. And the majority will accept only when they see that the piece of land being worked in accordance with Torah is producing more than a neighboring piece of land being overworked. Then the other farmers will start doing the same, and Shmita will be observed across the country.

In the ancient times, there was no export of agricultural products worth talking about. In general, export was very limited, except for the Silk Road and some maritime export. The agricultural products, being perishable, could not survive such trips. So agricultural export was primariy in seeds, spices, oils.

Most of the farming in the ancient times in the Mediterranean area, especially in the steppes (prairies) and semideserts was following the so-called three-field cycle, wherein each year one field was sowed in and wherever possible stayed "under steam" (I suppose kind of like a moist greenhouse), the other was harvested from, and the third was used for pastures. The following year, the fields were shifted: the second field was harvested from, the third field, having been heavily fertilized by the sheep, horses, and cows, was sowed in, and the first one was now used for pastures. In colder climates, there was a four-field system, where the fourth field was burned out after having been used for pasture for a year (the ashes provided a good foundation for sowing; the heat treatment of the manure also provided for a better fertilizer).

Shmitah was a radical change in the system. It took a lot of trust, and such trust could be expected of former slaves, but not of farmers who had gotten used to their ways. Shmita requires complete rest for the land in the 7th year, and considering the jubilee year, that makes two years of rest in the 49th and 50th years.

On the other hand, if Shmita can be interpreted as rotating, that is, a 7-field rotating system, then it might just work out. I know Talmud discusses it, but I don't know what the conclusions are. It seems to me that Yerushalmi might have more on it. I will also look up if I can find anything on the matter in Qumran Scrolls translations that I happen to have. That might take some time though.

Alex,

quote:

I understand. It would be wonderful to place the land of Israel under the Shechinah. But I am very wary of making global decisions without the acceptance by the majority. And the majority will accept only when they see that the piece of land being worked in accordance with Torah is producing more than a neighboring piece of land being overworked. Then the other farmers will start doing the same, and Shmita will be observed across the country.

This is circular reasoning. We cannot know about the effects of Torah on land until we do it according to Torah. So if we don't try it we won't know. Again, no one is suggesting that a "global decision" be forced onto people. We've been through this discourse before. In order for something halachic to happen people don't have to be forced into anything. A majority can democratically agree to try something Torah given adequate inducements, especially in Israel.
Avi

Circular reasoning? Not at all. It is very straight-forward. Get one farm to follow Shmittah, and then make sure all others see that it prospers. Then they will all move to 7-year cycles.

Until we hear the chariots behind our backs, no one will step into the waters. Even as free men, we complained about the foods we had in Egypt as slaves. How can you expect people to agree on something as risky as jumping off a cliff in hopes that they will grow wings while falling.

Alex,

I'm not sure one farm here and one farm there will do it. The majory of farms in Israel would have to be doing it in order to see the effect.

About falling off a cliff; I'm not sure it's a good analogy. As I mentioned in a different discourse, an inducement such as a fund that guarantees a farmer will make at least what he normally makes if the shmitta doesn't work out, is a good inducement and it's far from falling off a cliff because there is no loss to him.....a Shmitta Indemnity Fund.

In the US, the government pays farmers, year after year, not to grow certain crops, so the idea is not far-fetched at all.

Avi

I have no doubt that the economics will work out and the farmers will do well.
However you have to realize that we do the mitzvoth because we were commanded to do them, not because we think it is a good business decision to do so.
A Business person may think he may do better if he works on shabat. But he does not work on Shabat because it is assur.
The same should be for shmita. It is assur. These are the rules. Now lets figure out how to make it work.

Now we don't need to force anyone to do anything at this point. However for those interested in keeping the mitzvot there is no other choice but to keep shmita. Thus we shouldn't have to convice them, just like you don't have to convince someone to keep shabat.

This should go both for the farmers as well as the public who buys kosher food.

With regards to trying one farm at a time. This is a problem. The only way that otzar Beit Din can work is if the public is interested in it. So long as they have a choice to buy Heter Mechira they don't need otzar Beit Din and thus is can't succeed.
But if Heter Mechira won't be an option than otzar beit din will work great. Also once we start the fudning programs it will also work. But we have to start.

The average dati leumi person doesn't think about all this . He just wants to get his vegetables and fruits and he wants them to be kosher.
When his local Rabbi tells him that Heter Mechira is ok, than he goes to his local vegetable store which has Heter Mechira to get vegetables.
Few go out of their way to get and deal with Otzar Beit Din Vegetables and fruits which have kdushat shviit.
The same goes for the Charedim. Their local Rabbi tells them that produce that came from the arabs in Gaza is Lemahadrin kosher. Thus they have no interest in getting otzar beit din either.

What happaned last shmita was that the otzar beit din had contracts with farmers to work for them. But their supply was larger than their demand. The demand was simply very low . No one really needed them. Thus they got stuck with too many potatoes. So the Otzar Beit din had to raise the prices in order to make their payments.
This is ironic, because there were very few farmers who actually kept shmita and took part in otzar beid din. But still this very little supply was more than the demand.


Off course the ultimate solution will be to have an halachic state. In a Halachic State everything will work out.
But even before we have an halachic state , we the religous people have to think in terms of having an halachic state. Even if only all the religous people were to decide that they want to make shmita happen , then it can happen. But if only a few want to keep shmita that it is very very difficult.

Baruch,

I understand. But how observant are Israeli farmers? How willing are they to go into the inconvenience of skipping a year of farming for the sake of observance of Shmitta?

Now, if the Jews stop buying produce from Israeli farms that were harvested during the Shmitta year, then even the most anti-Torah farmer will be forced to observe Shmitta.

Without that, it has to be one farm at a time.

Here's some more discussion on the subject that I found on the web:

http://listserv.shamash.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind040512&L=top&T=0&F=&S=&P=60

Alex,
There are 2 different issues and I think each one of us is focusing on a different issue in this discussion.

The issues are:
1. How Shmita should be Kept according to Halacha? What are the halachic options today for the farmer and for the general public?

2. Convincing or forcing the secular Farmer to keep Shmita.

I think you are focussing on issue#2 and I am focussing on #1.

Today farmers have the option to not actually truly keep Shmita by taking part in Heter Mechira. Thus they can do so in accordance with halacha.
In this situation I don't think we can expect the Secular Farmer to actualy keep Shmita. After all to truly keep Shmita would mean to be "machmir" more than the halacha requires and more than most religous farmers are doing.
For the general public getting their produce from Otzar Beit Din would mean to be more machmir than most of the religous people are.

Thus I think we should first focus on issue#1. At this point I am more concerned with the religous public and the way Shmita is actually kept by those who do observe the mitsvoth.

Issue#2 is certainly important as well but I think we first have to focus on issu#1 before we address issue#2.
This issue is part of the genreal discussion on making Israel into an Halachic State. I like Avi believe it can be done.

Regarding issue#1.
My suggestion is that Heter Mechira not be allowed anymore because it is a very bad Heter and there is a lot of machloket about it. Even those who allow it don't feel comfortable with it and do it because they feel they have a lack of choice.

We need to get those who care about keeping the mitsvoth to give their support to keeping Shmita. They can do this through Shmita funds as well as simply getting their produce on Shmita Year from Otzar Beit Din (as well as getting produce from the 6th year when ever possible)

The farmers who are intersted in following the halacha will not be able to do Heter Mechira.

How would one know that the fruit one is purchasing is kosher? Every fruit has a sticker on it?

Sam,
Yes, they have a shmitta hechsher. I was foolish enough to pick up flowers for my hosts when I was invited for Shabbat 6 years ago (it was a shmitta year). The flowers didn't have a hechsher and these hosts were very machmir Hareidi. I put them on the spot unwittingly. Whew!

Avi

Baruch -

Agreed.

-Alex