The discussion on protesting the Chilul Hashem caused by Jews being kicked out of their houses by other Jews in Israel and the Hilul Hashem we are allowing the Arabs to do on Har Habatyit somehow got into why not protest against Chilul Shabath and other avirot in Eretz Hakodesh as they are Hilul Hashem as well.


So what can we do about this major Chilul Hashem?

Some general ideas:

1. KIRUV - We have to take part in more Kiruv activities to bring Jewish people back to do Tsuva and understand the value of Shabat.

2. Boycott those who are mechelel Shabath - buying only from those who are closed on Shabat. In the case of restuarants it is easy as all restuarants with an Hechser are required to be closed on Shabat. As for other products it is more difficult. But it possible to find out and advertise who to buy from.
This was done with partial success in cases like El-AL flying on Shabat.

3. Using Force - Such as throwing stones on Cars that drive on Shabat. I personally don't think this is a good idea as I don't think it is effective. Today we also don't yet have more power than those who are mechalel Shabat and they can get back at us. This only my opinion and I may be wrong.
(It is also can be problematic to throw stones on Shabat as it involves carrying in Reshut Harabim. According to many opinions we do have Reshuth Harabim today and our Eruv doesn't hold.)

3. Campaign for turning the State in to an Halachic State as Avi proposed. I believed this is the best solution to take care of the problem but this won't happen overnight and will only succeed with united support of all the religous people.

Maybe others can add ideas to this list.

It has been sugested and implied that those who protest regarding the Hilul Hashem on Har Habayit, the turning over of land in Israel to goyim, and kicking Jews out of their homes, don't really care about the other mitzvoth very much.
It has been said that they unlike the Charedim don't protest Hilul Shabat.


Well I am not sure what protests that the Charedim do is being reffered to.


Things that were said are False and out of line regarding some of the finest yourth of the Jewish nation. In fact the complete opposite is the case.


I am not sure how many on this forum know any of the Religous Jews who lived in Gush Katif or any of the Hilltop Youth (Naarei Hagvaot) who join the protests against the government on these issues.

I have lived in different neighborhoods in Israel including Secular neighborhoods. I have Charedi family relatives who live in Charedi neighborhoods. I had relatives who lived in Bnei Brak. I have friends who live in the settlements.


The religous Jews Of Gush Katif and the Hiltop Youth are very makpid on all mitzvoth. And they fight for Yeshuv of Eretz Israel because of their strong faith in the Torah.
The Hiltop youth do not hesitate to break the law and even sit in prison when it comes to standing up for the Torah.

I suggest that all of you who criticize them should meet them first.

In general, the non charedi religous Jews have done much more to prevent Chilul Shabat in Eretz Israel than the Charedim. The reason is simple. The Charedim are secluded from the rest of Israeli society and thus have very little influece on it.

I have no problem giving credit where it belongs. On occasion the Charedim were the ones who prevented Chilul Shabat and other Aviroth by putting pressure on the government. They were also the main ones who are responsible from preventing El-Al from flying on Shabat.

But overall it is the national religous group that has done more.

The best example is the Israeli Military.

I believe that Aviroth done by the military is one of the biggest Chilul Hashem.

I have had very little good things to say about the Israeli Military in the last few years as I think it has been far from acting in accordance with the Torah.
However I would like to focus on some of the Hilul Hashem that has been prevented in the military and has effected the entire Israeli population.

In the Military all the kitchens are required to be Kosher. It is forbidden by command to bring anything not kosher into the kitchen and all the regulations set by the Rabanut are required by command as well.
Shabat has a special status in the military. While an individual may act as he pleases which means he can smoke, talk on his phone and watch TV, the military as a group is required to keep Shabat. No training is allowed by Military command. Soldiers don't polish their shoes, don't shave, or perform any cleaning activites which are performed daily. The military is only allowed to perform activities that are required for security.
It is forbidden by military command to turn on fire in the kitchen or anywhere in the dinning rooms. Every Kitchen has a Blech and everything is conducted in accordance with Halacha.
On Pesach Chametz is forbidden in all military bses even in the rooms by military command.

All these rules are in place as a result of the influnce of the non Charedi religous sector.

This has not always been the case. Years ago Rav Goren protested and faught to have all the kitchens in the military kosher. He went from unit to unit and demanded that the Kitchen will be kosher. When he got to the Pratrooper unit he was told that there was no need for a Kosher kitchen as there was not even one religous soldier in the unit. In response he himself took the Paratrooper training course and became a Paratrooper. As a result the Kitchen was made Kosher.

The military is far from perfect and units which only have secular solders will try to bend the rules when they can.

Every permanent base has a Mashgiach so the rules are strictly kept. But in the small bases out in the field it is possible to bend the rules. Whenever a unit with religous soldiers come to such bases the first thing they do is demand for the Kitchen to be Kashered by the Rabanut.

Once in a while we also hear that the Military was planning some non crucial operation or training on Shabath. It is the protest from the national religous soldiers, Rabbis, and politicians that prevents this.

In my basic traning in the military I was the only one who was religous. While overall I did not run into any problems. I did on one occasion prevent an the entire unit from being Mechalel Shabat by protesting. The Commanders ended up getting in trouble for trying to bend the rules.

Every Shabat there is a festive Shabas meal with Kidush done. One of the secular soldiers told me he never made kidush in his life. But since he saw Kidush done in the Army he has started making Kidush for his family when he was home on Shabas.

I generally don't see the point in arguing who is better Charedim or Dati Leumi. It doesn't get us anywhere. Not everyone is each group is the same. Each group has made mistakes and can learn from the other.

However I had to respond to these accusations.

Baruch,

I'm not sure that Rav Chaim meant that people who don't protest chillul Shabbat don't care. He was questioning the motives, viz a viz that protest about land is motivated by nationalism rather than the desire for mitzvot.

I concurred with Rav Chaim that we don't see as much protest over Shabbat desecration among those who protest about land because Yiddishkeit is not uniform. Those who protest Shabbat desecration generally don't protest about land either. They are not any worse people because of it....just different. We cannot pick on people who don't specialize in our pet mitzvot as being any less than we are because the Sages teach we all have our niche that may not be the same as the next person's. You and I are doctors, we cannot expect someone who is not a doctor to make the same contribution as ours or vice versa.

I think Rav Chaim looks at things in very start contrasts. Things are either black or white for him. In reality, things are never that way, especially when trying to judge people's motives.

Some Hareidim will protest autopsies and hide bodies etc. That's very noble. But let's create a system whose laws will prohibit autopsies.

Avi

quote:

3. Using Force - Such as throwing stones on Cars that drive on Shabat. I personally don't think this is a good idea as I don't think it is effective.

Isn't it also a desecration of Shabbos to pick up a stone or break glass if you mean throwing stones on Shabbos?

And how can one distinguish someone obligated to drive on Shabbos such as to save a life, and risk impeding their way?

Avi,

I agree with you that things are not black and white and it is completely ok for some people to specialize on some things and others to focus on others.

But I was making a point that those religous people who protest against Hilul Hashem on Har Habayit and turning over land are doing it by their strong bliefe in the Torah.
There is no basis to making these accusations.

In addition I am claiming that in fact they are doing as much as the Charedim or even more with regards to protesting Hilul Shabat.

I am not quite sure what protests are we referring to with regards to the Charedim other than throwing stones on cars.

I have no problem with certain groups like the Charedim not doing as much with regards to protesting issues of Yeshuv Eretz Israel.
After all I am not living in the settlements, thus I am doing less than others.
Not everyone has to be in the front line.

I do have a problem with people not carring at all on what happens on Har Habayit.
We daven every day for Har Habayit but in reality we don't care about it.

I also have a problem with not carring and even supporting Jews being Kicked out of their homes.

quote:

Some Hareidim will protest autopsies and hide bodies etc. That's very noble. But let's create a system whose laws will prohibit autopsies.

It is very noble.
Like you said what we really need is system with laws which deal with it.
Jewish bodies are used in Anatomy classes in Medical School. Is that ok? Well the Rabanut gave a Heter years ago regarding this as it was important to have Doctors in Israel and they needed medical schools. It wasn't easy to get non jewish bodies. Others may have disagreed with this heter.
I am not a posek and I am not getting into this issue. The Beit din should deal with these issues..
But if you are protesting that, than you should not use the medical system in Israel, and you should find an alternative solution.
This is a typical example of preferring a secular State. Rather than dealing with the issue, you let the seculars do the Avirot and everyone benefits from it.

quote:

But if you are protesting that, than you should not use the medical system in Israel, and you should find an alternative solution.

Wait a second there - you leave no room for someone to say I don't like this questionably permissible practice (and protest it) and would prefer that you adopt a less-questionable practice (and here is one I suggest)?

Is there anything hypocritical about doing that?

Rob,

The issue here is a passive-aggressive one. On the one hand the same people who protest, but if you say to them, "let's change the system so that there is no need to protest". They will say, "Who are you to change the system?", "It's HaShem's job". So they continue to protest and daven without even an attempt to provide any practical solutions.

Baruch's idea that people should find another system is really an expression of frustration, because they want it both ways. They have harsh words for the treif Zionist while gladly accepting the benefit from his treif.

Avi

quote:

Wait a second there - you leave no room for someone to say I don't like this questionably permissible practice (and protest it) and would prefer that you adopt a less-questionable practice (and here is one I suggest)?

That would be fine. But I haven't heard of any suggestions.
And regarding this issue, we don't have a haredi Medical School as an alternative.