The shulchan aruch in section 199 says that a complete ignoramus can be counted for zimun. the mishna berurah comments on thin in subsection 2. How is what the mishna berurah writes defined nowdays? who can one include in a zimun and who should one avoid making a zimun with? does this applly to davening as well?
thank you

In the gemara there is a long discussion on what is an am haaretz and whether we count him for a mizumin. Since the general level of the jews by the middle ages was pretty low, this discussion became moot. Now women and slaves who wouldn't expect to have a high level of learning also have a mizumin so it is not something that requires a very high level even in the time of the gemara.
Now calling the people to the torah is an honor and originally only someone who could read was called but when they changed the custom they stopped being careful who they called up (except maybe the Yekkis).
Now while most authorities were ready to count anyone for a minyan (but as you see the Magen Avraham already wanted to exclude those who didn't say the shemah everyday), some people are careful who they pray with.
The real debate was over who can be shiliach zibur. We have numerous shilot whether it was preferable if the shiliach zibur was a great talmud chacham (espeically on the high holidays) or someone with a great voice. The majority said if the congregation wants the chazan with a great voice over the talmud chacham, you take the chazan.

Cheers,

Aryeh Shore

thank you for the reply. very interesting. what do you have to say about the mishna berurah that says one who commits an aveira in public like being mechalal shabbos cannot be counted?

quote:

Originally posted by danielb:
thank you for the reply. very interesting. what do you have to say about the mishna berurah that says one who commits an aveira in public like being mechalal shabbos cannot be counted?

Well now most authorities think that the mechalal shabas is talking about someone who is mechalal shabbat with the intent to defy the torah. Most people today who are not observing the shabbat is not out of spite but out of ignorance or some half thought out idea of what the torah means today which does not put them in the category of being mechalal shabat for spite. If someone comes to a minyan it is out of kvod for the torah and we should be like hillel who tries to bring people closer to the torah no matter where they are starting from.
Bottom line: Shore's rule 04. If you use the instrument of the devil known as the internet, don't worry about it.

Aryeh Shore

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:

Bottom line: Shore's rule 04. If you use the instrument of the devil known as the internet, don't worry about it.

Aryeh Shore

What are your other rules?