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GY Teacher  |
There are many ideas in the last post. Since my time for typing is limited, I'll tend to one point at a time.
Today, I would like to write on the 6 million Question. There is no PC answer to this, thus we'll go to the point. Of course, since Hashem did not discuss this with me, I can't speak for him why He did it, but I can give over a theory. The popular theory is because of the haskalah itself. (Is it a coincidence that the haskalah started and had it's greatest success in Berlin. Rabbi M.S. of Dvinsk (died 1926) writes of "The fire will come from Berlin because they say that Berlin is the next Jerusalem".) In Judaism there is a concept of reward and punishment. In this week's portion of Torah reading talks about the bad events that will come out when one doesn't keep the Torah (not to different from the accounts of WW2). Now, if you have the nation that for the century was ignoring torah and the Mitzvos, What is supposed to happen? If Hashem ignores it you would ask, why doesn't Hashem punish those that go against Him? On the one hand, there was a christian on this forum that asked How can someone be a Jew and keep the awesome responsibilities and not be "destroyed" for not keeping them completly all the time. On the other hand, a lot of secular Jews feel that as long as they hadn't massed murdered, Hashem has no right to punish them. I must go right now, and this might not answer every question , but the concept itself takes away the main thrust of the question. |
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Dear Richard Klein,
I have'nt yet responded specifically to your post of 26 aug. so let me do so now. Yes, here in Holland 'the war' is a big issue even now, especially for the older generation. That holds even more so - unnecessary to say this - for the Jewish community. Where I live, in 'Mokum!' [the old Jewish name for Amsterdam] there was a large and long-established Jewish community a mere 70 years ago - now there are just monuments and a couple of Mohicans like me. But I feel this connection strongly, and I'm not the only one. Hence the contact with this list: we have forgotten the language (I can still read Yiddish), we have forgotten the rituals, but the emotions are there still: feelings of loyalty, respect, 'belonging', 'neshomme'. We are the products of a secularised society, but the bearers of enough scars to remind us that this self-same society bears within it a dynamic which is potentially self-destructive and dangerous. Reason enough to ask whether our own (estranged) tradition, i.e. Judaism, is still strong enough to provide an antidote and a source of spiritual renewal. When you spoke, in an early post, of a "great spiritual vacuum" in the world you hit the nail right on the head. That too is my point of departure. When you write: “I would like to thank you and probably on behalf of Rav Chaim too, because for once you have put us on the same ground†I take it that what you have intuited is that not a word of what I have written is motivated by desire to polemicise against the Orthodoxy - quite the contrary. To my untutored (meaning: secular) eye, the Orthodoxy is a bearer of truth in a sense which is as valid now as it was five millennia ago: that the moral truths revealed to the sages are as essential to a society which wishes to be at peace with itself now than they were then; that an educational and media process which ignores them must bear its part of the responsibility for the egoistic and narcissistic monsters populating our planet. A word on the evolution issue. One can approach the science versus religion debate with the aim of building a bridge, for secularists (of the kind that I myself once was), to enable them to re-discover the centrality of moral truths. (An enterprise which in a previous generation was associated with names like Franz Rosenzweig, Walter Benjamin, Theodor Adorno). It is from *this* point of view that I myself approach Darwinism and evolution. Reinman says something like this: it doesn't bother me in the least if the physical anthropologists show that human beings first evolved - say - three million years ago. It doesn't diminish the centrality of the Decalogue and its necessity in education and politics in the least - it merely underpins it, by reminding us of the consequences of forgetting it. (i.e. a return to an animal and barbaric state.) This message has been edited. Last edited by: F van Gelder, |
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GY Teacher |
To go back to Dr. Van Gelder's last post on page 1, he writes the point that modern society is based on the freedom of religion, thus going back to religion would create an immoral society.
I think, that society as a whole has not improved over the last half of century. Murder, and crime in general, is much more rampant. Education is failing, the family is failing. Drug use is wide spread etc. etc.. I can't look at society and say that it took a turn for the better. I don't think we should confuse science and medicine advancements with the social aspects of our society. There are plenty of religious people that help with these advancements, and you can't give the full credit of these achievements to the secular. But for the social aspects of the secular society, I think it's going downhill. Yes, in our ghettos (the society of the Orthodox, where we group together) society's ill's are not so much of a worry (I can't say that they don't exist, but it's the small minority of people on the fringe, not the mainstream at all.) |
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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
quote: Rav Chaim, You are cautious in the above quote - you don't say: the Holocaust was divine retribution; it was Hashem punishing the secular Jews for not keeping the Mitzvot. You call this a "popular theory", by which I take it that you mean that there is no scriptural foundation for it in the Talmud, or that there is no consensus on this. But you hasten to give reasons why you personally believe this 'theory' to be plausible. quote: Your post is pretty clear on this: first there is the Haskalah and secularism - centered, in your view, in Berlin - and as a result of this, Hashem punishes the Jews by visiting on them the scourge of the Holocaust. quote: I am rather interested in the sources which you have consulted before coming to this conclusion. "Popularity" can, after all, not be much of guide here, especially on this important subject. A few comments of mine on this. From a 1991 Dutch book on [Jewish] child survivors, I take the following figures: between 4,000 to 6,000 children survived the war, mostly because they had been hidden by gentiles. (I was one of those children.) Somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 children were murdered, from a total - the World Jewish Congress figure for this - of more than a million and a half for the whole of Europe. [The figures are from Elma Verhey: *Om het joodse kind.*] Of those that survived, just about every one did so because someone risked their life for them - sometimes, as is my own case, an entire family. Of those those that had survived, in Holland, 2,000 had lost both parents. Their fate was such that a new term entered the vocabulary of the psychologists and psychiatrists: that of "sequential traumatisation". [c.f. Hans Keilson 1980: *Sequential traumatisation of children*.] It is not possible to read this book - and quite a few others - without weeping. I won't even mention Anne Frank. I could go on and on on this, but I'll keep it short. Are you in all seriousness expecting us to believe, Rav Chaim, that these children were murdered because *some* Jews 200 years earlier had read Spinoza, Erasmus and Descartes? Had stopped being observant? This message has been edited. Last edited by: F van Gelder, |
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Rav Chaim says that the popular theory with regard to the Holocoust was that the non-observance which was engendered by the Haskalah movement engendered the punishment spoken of in this weeks Parashah. And indeed, when I read the end of the admonition, I could not help but wonder the same. But if that were true, then what of the massacres during the Crusades and at other times and places? There was no Reform or Conservative or secular, just Jews trying to survive in ghettos and living Orthodox. If the punishment was executed in WWII, then the same had to be in effect earlier. The question would be why? So the secular Jews of Germany perished, but also the orthodox and chassidim of Lithuania, Russia, and Poland. And here in America, why were we spared? Most here are -- and certainly were then as well -- liberal to Reform. So there is the question.
On science, and I speak as a scientist and MD, this is a way of evaluating claims. It assumes consistency in the patterns it evaluates. On the other hand, the patterns and consistency must be the work of HaShem, for it is His world. I may be off base, and if so please forgive me, but I thought that in general we accepted new ideas in medicine when they were shown to be effective and EVEN IF they seemed to contradict some Oral Law teaching (such as setting broken bones). Surely we are not required to believe the physics of Rambam in his Guide, where it clearly is incorrect. It is in matters of Torah that our teachers are our guides, but my rabbi would not tell me how to give anesthesia! |
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GY Teacher |
The reason I wrote "theory" is not that I don't believe it to have merit. It's because, short of having prophesy, how can one be sure why Hashem does anything. When one questions why Hashem does something, we could come up with theories to answer the question. But the only one that can say for sure is Hashem himself, and so far I haven't met anyone who spoke with him lately.
For the verses in scripture that would vindicate such a theory see Vayikra chapter 26 verses 14-46 and Devarim chapter 28 verses 15-69 When you wrote that this was for what happened 200 years before, this is not true, this was an ongoing process for 120 years leading into the Holocaust. The people in the late 1930's were very secular and the secularism continued until something had to be done. Now the way punishment is set up, Hashem does not send a lightning bolt everytime and immediately after one sins. This would create an environment that would remove any way to choose right and wrong. So it has to be done more discreetly. Thus Hashem waits for the right opportunity to punish. It looks to the untrained eye as random, but for someone who knows what to look for could make an educated guess as to what it is for. Your question about why children suffered is a fair question. The reason that Hashem has to let such a thing happen, is because the way the world is set up, you can't punish an adult without punishing everyone around him. We live in a very interconnected world, thus, without open miracles, you can't separate the two. In Shmos Chapter 12 verse 22 Rashi says that once permission was given for the "destroyer" to destroy, he doesn't differentiate between the righteous and the wicked. This is also done in any criminal system. If you send the father to jail, aren't you making his kids suffer? We shouldn't be sending anybody to jail? Now, a child, in the way the world works, is totally dependent on his parents. Many times that would put them in certain perils. Do you expect Hashem to give children only to the best parents? The world runs by the nature that Hashem commanded it, and everybody gets to run their lives as they feel fit, and ruin other lives for that case. The same way that Hashem lets people hurt other people, this is part of the interconnected world he put us on. So you can understand, that when one sins, and causes punishment on themselves, or a city sins and causes punishment opon themselves, when the havoc comes in, it will directly affect other people. This is what the Talmud means by the statement "woe to the sinner and woe to his neighbor". In D'varim Chapter 24 verse 16 Rashi comments that small children die for the sins of their parents (why this happens, I personally didn't look into it, but at least in Talmudic thought there is such a concept). There is also a concept in Kabbalah of "Gilgulim", souls that come back to this world in a reincarnated form, to receive punishment for the sins they did in their past life, so they can then be let into heaven. These children could possibly be punished for something they did in their past lives. This would also answer The last Rashi I brought down. ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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Dear Rav Chaim,
while I'm mulling over our last exchange, allow me to ask a personal question. (Sometimes it's useful to know something about the person delivering the textual interpretation.) You were born after the war, and not in the USA. In Eastern Europe? In Israel? What personal experiences do you have with regard to the Holocaust? (These are the things one does not need to ask if we were sitting at a meeting, where I could nudge my neighbour and whisper: where does he come from? What is his background?) |
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GY Teacher |
To Moshe:
My last post was a response to Dr. van Gelder's post, and was being written while you posted last night, so I didn't see your post untill today. You bring up a lot of good points, but, remember I just said it as a theory, because in reality, we don't know exactly why things happen. It's all an educated guess. There could be many variables. To answer your question about the Orthodox that died during the war (I was actually waiting for Dr. van Gelder to ask this), you can use the same reason I brought in the last post. Once the "destroyer" was given permisssion to destroy he doesn't differentiate between the righteous and wicked. Compare this with the gemarah in Shabbos 32a which says that when someone is in a situation of peril, it is much easier for him to be judged for death than in normal situations. Another possible answer is in Gemora Shabbos 55a: One who has the ability to protest a sin and doesn't gets the same punishment as he who actually sinned. Regarding the American Jews, a possible answer is the nature of their lack of Yiddishkeit was different from their counterparts in Europe. There secularism was more due to the neglect of the education of their children rather than the blatent rejection of the Hashem and the Torah. A seond possibility is from what the Gemmarah in Shabbos 10b (also brought in Rashi in Vaerah) that the city Of Tzayir was saved since it was the younger of the 5 cities, and therefore have not the same amount of sins, and did not filled up their measure, so it was saved. Always live in a place that was settled the least amount of time for this reason. The Crusades, and this goes for all other tragedies throughout our history, came also from sin. Just because one is Orthodox doesn't mean that they are free of sin. There are tragedies in the Orthodox community, there is sin in the Orthodox communities. I don't know what sins where prevalent in the 1100s, but you can't say there weren't. The Tosfos Yom Tov said that it was revealed to him in a dream, that the progroms of 1648-9 was caused by talking in middle of prayers. What is different with the Holocoust is the unparalleled killing that was never met in our history, plus the curious place where it started, by the very people they wanted to join their culture. Plus the words of Rav Meir Simcha I brought in an earlier post, it seems to add up to a viable theory. And once it started a hostile environment for the Jews, so even Orthodox Jews were put up to scrutiny and punished for their sins, as we see from earlier generations that their sins can also cause their deaths. Now, I must repeat that these are just theories, and I really don't have any idea why any of this happened. I'm just stating, if someone is trying to blame the holocaust for his atheism, I'm just giving plausable reason for it. Personally, I do not think that my logic is the same as Hashem's, that if Hashem does something that I don't understand that I deserve an explanation from Him. But for those that won't take that for an answer, I feel it is of worth to give a viable cause, so that they can't use it as an excuse. I'm not sure on what point you are going on by the science and medicine, so could you please elaborate on your point ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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GY Teacher |
Dear Dr. van Gelder,
I was born in the USA. My mother was born in a DP camp in Germany to parents who were both concentration camp survivors. (My father's family came to US in the beginning of the 1900's) So I grew up with my maternal grandparents as Holocaust survivors. ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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The Holocaust has been likened to a "black hole" in astronomy, sucking everything in its vicinity into its vortex. Even light-years away, everything caught in its gravitational field is doomed, distorting even the ostensible constants of time and space beyond recognition.
Something like that has happened within Judaism in recent times. For seventy years now the Haredi has been forced to choose between a Hashem who was impotent (or at least voluntarily absent: tzimtzum), malevolent or inscrutable - settling mostly for inscrutability, the least unpalatable of the alternatives, coupled with the purely 'human' speculation that from the draconian nature of the punishment we can infer the gravity and nature of the sins which must originally have triggered the calamity. quote: I take the above quotations from erstwhile Yad Vashem director Yehuda Bauer: *Rethinking the Holocaust*, in a long chapter appropriately entitled "Theology, or God the Surgeon". Bauer goes on to describe the various strategies adopted by the religious. One is that of Lord Immanuel Jacobovits, the former chief rabbi of Britain, "who argued that a direct causal connection between Jewish sins and acts of God can take place only in the Land of Israel.." Another strategy - a very ancient one - is to argue that 'man is too puny to understand God's purpose' and that if the suffering is great enough there will be divine intervention; that the degree of suffering is linked to the likelihood of a return of the Messiach. quote: Bauer then goes on to analyse the responsa (shut) of Rabbi [Menachem Mendel] Shneersohn, and describes the controversy in Israel in the early eighties with Chaika Grossman, who took public exception to the Rabbi's 'mipnei khata'einu' (because of our sins) argument. quote: Bauer analyses this further, especially the Jewish martyrdom idea, Kiddush Hashem, which of course reminds of the Islamic version of the same, which is doing so much damage at the moment world-wide. quote: So much for Bauer. I have quoted him at length because he expresses my own position better than I can, and because I have learnt from him. I was going to go on and give an indication of the secular and the reform position on the Holocaust, but it will have to wait for another day. For the moment I'm still pursuing the theme: why we 'lost children' are neither lost, nor are we children. Perhaps a last, personal comment. I spent more than twenty years in Germany, always pursuing that one question: ‘why’? But it never occurred to me to blame the *Jews*, never occurred to me that that typically antisemitic argument: “It’s their own fault, they deserved it, they brought it upon themselvesâ€, is an argument which I would one day hear from *other* Jews, all wrapped up in the ludicrous idea that it 'says so' in the Talmud. If I’ve learnt anything at all it is this: Bauer is right. “Historical, sociological, psychological, and maybe even philosophical explications have been more productive†– and that’s putting it mildly. Jewish self-hatred is not the answer to anything, and nor is a Jewish re-invention of the Inquisition. Such a sniffing out of sinners is repugnant. The Marranos who founded the old Portuguese synagogue here in Amsterdam 400 years ago arrived here after fleeing for their lives; fleeing from that self-same mentality on the Iberian peninsula. More next time. F. van Gelder, Amsterdam This message has been edited. Last edited by: F van Gelder, |
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GY Teacher |
This is not the same way as how gentiles say that it's their own fault. Is it cruel to say of a chain smoker that he was at fault that he died of lung cancer? It at least have a purpose that other's should see and understand, so they shouldn't be the next victims.
The problem is we are not talking thesame language. We're talking apples and oranges. You're coming from your huministic philosify and saying, if my values are correct then there can't be any G-d. You're trying to proove secularism from secularism. Theoligy is disprooved, because they are not allowed to use theoligy to answer anything. Jewish theoligy is that we are created for a purpose, and the whole reason to keep up the world is for this purpose. When there is a veer from this purpose there needs a shakeup. the seculars want to deny the purpose, they don't want to have anything to do with this purpose, so their philosify is it is unfair to punish for the purpose, and anyone who suggest that is being cruel. I also feel it's unfair to compare simular ideas in different religions. You, being from good liberal, would it be fair to compare you to the liberal terrorist (Unibomber, union thugs etc.) that uses acts of violence to promote their liberal causes? Just because more seculars survived the Holocaust, does not mean they didn't suffer more. Look at your case, weren't you suffering for the last 60 years, even after the war had ended? All the questions you brought up I already answered in previous posts, either to you or Dr. Moore. For all I gave reference where I get those ideas from and I don't see the problem quoting scriptures and Talmud which predict these things. I think they are very consistent. Listen, there are millions of people that believe they can smoke and they'll be the one's that wont get cancer, and when they do, they'll curse G-d for being unfair,. There is nothing I can do for them. |
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let me make some remarks regarding the 6 million.Of course,as R'Chaim writes ,we don't know Hashem"s reasons.However,we are obligated to observe whats happenig and try to draw proper and true conclusions.It's an interesting phenomenon ,that as well reform as haskala and zionism tried to offer solutions to the old age problem of antisemitism.It is reform that propageted that if we will be an intergral part of the nations ,they will like as and accept us as theirs.The same theory holds true ,albeit in different forms ,for haskala and zionism. All "solutions" to antisemitism are a form of trying to run away from Hashem's special Hashgacha over the Jewish Nation. Hashem shows us in the strongest form,that this will not and never work .Furthermore, where the Jewish people will try to find salvation outside the realms of Torah, there they'll be hit. I think that's what Reb M.S. means.It is said in the name of R" Yisrael Salanter that when the Reform conference in 1847 in Braunschweig sanctified mixed marriages the following : "when Jews make laws that permit them to marry Gentiles, then Gentiles will make laws that will forbid them to marry Jews i.e. the Nuremberg laws a short century later.The same holds true for Zionism.It was the theory of Political Zionism that when Jews will have their own state and be a nation among the nations, antisemitism will cease .We witness today the axact opposite. Contemproray Antisemitism is dressed in Antizionism,but we all know that it's identical.
Again ,we can't stess anough that we don't know Hashem's ways (the simple reason being, that in truth we're only a small dot in the history of mankind,we with our limited view .only see this point and cannot rationalize it. Hashem,whop has the entire picture of the history of mankind in front of Him,ofcourse sees the justice and reason behind it). Let me just mentiion one more point regarding why innocent people like children and other observant people perished. Maybe ,again it's speculation ,but being raised in a home of Holocaust survivors I heard many times that Yiddishkeit in Poland was going downhill.Maybe Hashem wanted to save them from becoming secular as Chazal say on the rebellious son (ben sorer umore)let him die innocent and not be a sinner .Yaakov. |
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Rav Chaim,
this list is organized according to the 'sage on the stage' principle. The flock asks, the rebbe answers. But I'm old enough to be your father, and I've had more than thirty years of experience now in the way in which the European survivors and people in several European countries have dealt with the Holocaust. The appropriate form for an exchange between us is not that of question-answer; it is that of the *disputation*. Thesis: with regard to the socalled 'theory' which holds that the Holocaust stands in some relationship to Hashem's displeasure concerning the haskalah, concerning reform Judaism, concerning assimilation. This theory is divisive, it is dangerous, and it is based on a conception of truth and scholarship which is outdated. People who hold it do not deserve our respect. Let's debate this sentence: "the above theory is deeply divisive, it is dangerous, it is based on an ignorance of the facts, it is based on a method of scriptural interpretation which is fallacious and outdated." This message has been edited. Last edited by: F van Gelder, |
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GY Teacher |
I'm well aware of your seniority, but I realy don't think that to be an issue. There are plenty of people my parents' age (or my grandparents' age) that ask me questions of the area that I have my expertese in and don't have any qualms about it. The Mishna says "do not look at the flask but what's inside of it". I can see by your writtings that you're an educated man, but the field of Judaism you are ignorant. Without being familiar with the vast amount of Torah and Talmud, along with the long list of commentaries, Rashi, Tosfos ,Rambam, Ramban, Rashba, Rosh, Shulchun Orech, Rama, Shach, Taz, Mogen Avraham, Maharal, Ramchal, Vilna Goan,K'tzos, Nisivos, Chazon Ish, Brisker Rov,Igros Moshe, Sifsai Chaim to name a few. For this you must admit that there is a disadvantage for you in this area, besides the training in Talmudic logic, which is quite difficult, as told to me by returnies that it's harder than anything that they learnt in med school or law school. Therefore it might be hard for you to appreciate all the nuances of it.
When you wrote that anyone that holds to my theory is not deserving of our respect. This is straight out of the liberal playbook of quieting people who express ideas that are contrary to their own. With key words like "ignorant" ,"dangerous", "outdated" (you forgot to write they are "dinosaurs") this is all part of the PC dictionary. (This is an election year, and we hear these words a lot lately.) (How can this theory be "dangerous"? How many people do you think will be killed or maimed by this theory? Maybe some might be lightly shocked  , but dangerous? If it is correct, I would venture it would be dangerous not to bring up the theory.)When you write it's divisive. Of course it's divisive. You want to debate. Isn't debating divisive? The talmud states " where there is peace their is no truth, where there is truth there is no peace." Whenever I hear people saying on others that hold a different view than them, that they are divisive, they're saying as long as you don't agree with me you're just being divisive. Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it's the same as mine. I understand how this theory can offend you personally, I'm a sensitive person myself. Religion is a touchy subject. I do not in any way write it in order to attack you personally. You're probably a very nice person. This would not be my first choice of topics to bring up to introduce someone to Orthodox thought. You brought it up, so I had to respond. I'm sorry if I put it in a way that was offensive. ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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GY Teacher |
(this is my second consecutive post, so don't skip my last one)
Dr. van Gelder I want to point out first, that since you have limited connections to Orthodox thought, you shouldn't reject things out of hand. With a different thought process, you need time to "digest" them and to give them time to sink in. I know with myself, that every Talmudic thought that someone else poses, it sometimes takes a while to "see where he's coming from" (i.e. understand his side of the subject.) I, at least, living in a secular society, for better or for worse, have access to secular thought. I do listen to the radio, read magazines and books. Even though they are not my main endeavor, I still, over the years, have gotten more than an earfull, thus I'm somewhat familiar with the secular thought process About your rejection of "Hitler was the hand of G-d" theory, I would like to point out some facts, though not conclusive (which none of what I'm writting is, since they're all theories) but they sure give food for thought. I'm no historian, but from what I gather, Hitler had "9 lives". It was amazing that he lasted as long as he did. When he was a fetus, his mother had to be talked out of aborting him (I read that in Paul Harvey's Rest Of The Story book (Paul Harvey is a national syndicated journalist)) He almost died as an infant, as the doctor arived in the nick of time to save him. In WW1 he survived 2 years as a "runner" (a messanger boy between the trenches) where most people didn't last a few monthes. He was hit by mustard gas, but against all odds, he survived that too. There were a number of assassination attemps on his life in the late '30s and early '40s. He left the bar 5 minutes before it blew up, because he suddenly got a headache. Another time he was standing on the other side of the beam that protected him from the impact of the blast. (If I remember correctly, I saw the last 2 on a documentary that I watched on TV when I was in my early teens). It does seem that somebody was protecting him. To Rabbi Finklestein: A very interesting theory, The "Oylim" (members) here at the Kollel had a lot of "Hanah" (pleasure) from. To support this idea, the gemarah in Chaggiga 5A on the verse "I don't trust my holy ones" the gamarrah says that Hashem removes people before their time in order that they shouldn't turn sour. Another Gemmarah that comes to mind, that would be another answer (along these lines, but alittle bit different) is the Gemarah B.K.38A-B that Ullah said the reason that Hashem said to Moshe to spare the nations of Ommon and Moav was because 2 people needed to come out of them, Rus and Naamah, so if anything good would of come out of a certain girl (that died) her life would of been also spared. ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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Rav Chaim,
let's talk then about this "Hitler was the hand of G-d" speculation of yours. (Let's call it the HHG speculation, so that we don't have to keep writing that accursed name, and let's call it what it is: a *speculation*, and not a *theory*.) I said some days ago that I was prepared to defend the following thesis: this HHG speculation is divisive, it is dangerous, it is obscurantist. 1.) It is *divisive* because it is deeply offensive to the survivors and insulting to the memory of the dead. It is so offensive and so insulting that Yad Vashem director Bauer feels it necessary to *apologise* to everyone else for it, on the grounds that it has a very ancient lineage - it is a hold-over from a distant past when magic and Judaism were not very far apart. It is a myth which is persistent not because it has any truth-content but because of its 'feel-good' factor for the believer: "This kind of explanation has tremendous value for a minority group constantly threatened with persecution by the majority and often faced with real and continued suffering. The magic explanation returns power to the persecuted group: They are actually more powerful than their persecutors because they can change history by their behavior, and they know perfectly well what the behavior desired by God is. Magic is real, prevents despair, and enables the minority group - the Jews, in this case - to overcome disasters." (*Rethinking the Holocaust*, p. 193.) Of the very many other things to be said against it, let me mention one. Because of the fatalism inherent in it it minimizes human agency, personal responsibility, courage, fortitude. Here in Holland many people were saved because other people - non-Jews - risked their lives for them. What do you tell them - that they shouldn't have bothered? That the dead deserved what they got? 2.) It is *dangerous* because of this implied assumption that one is personally able to divine God's will on earth. If every Islamic sect and every hill-top minjan is convinced that it can see the finger of God pointing the road ahead, then the next step in the argumentation is just a matter of time: we not only understand God's purpose but have the responsibility to act in his name, have the right to claim that we are acting as *His Instrument*. Against the infidels, against the heretics, against the sinners and the un-believers. (Did someone say Yigal Amir?) 3) It is obscurantist in the literal meaning of the word: in the sense that it suppresses the memory of a long and noble tradition going back to Maimonides and Gersonides, which insists on keeping matters of faith and matters of the empirical world *apart*. When Jehuda Bauer writes that "The theology of the Holocaust is ... a dead end" (p. 212) what he means is that the origins of the Nazi movement in the twenties and thirties can be made the subject of a rational and systematic study; it has *causes* which can be *researched* rather than presenting us with mystical and transcendental signs which are there to be 'decyphered' as messages from an inscrutable and perhaps absent deity. If you want to understand the causes of the Nazi movement then read about the origins of the First World War, steep yourself in the Peace Treaty of Versailles, in the causes of the Great Depression, the causes of anti-semitism. Plenty of literature. One can then be overwhelmed by so much evil - that is true. But the inner fortitude, the solidarity one needs to face these things, these are on the *subjective* side of the equation, the emotional side, the side where we need each other and can support each other. The difference between teleology and contingency is an ancient one, and it was brought into Western thought by our medieval ancestors; it helps us keep under control those elements in our own thinking which have magical and mythological origins - or to use a modern term: which are 'projective'. Modern psychology is based on this. Rav Chaim, I can see by your writing on the subject of the Torah and the Talmud that you are an educated man, but in the field of Haskalah Judaism, on European history, in the field of medicine and philosophy, in the field of anthropology and psychology, you are - with all due respect - ignorant. But that is not the source of our dispute. The source of our dispute is not that each of us can point to regrettable gaps in the education and in the scholarship of the other; the source of our dispute is this implicit assumption of yours that when you come to a conclusion it is divinely inspired, whereas when I come to a conclusion it is the unfortunate prejudice of a goy. You say Torah but seem to mean Habad; you say Judaism but seem to mean something much narrower, you say Torah logic but when one looks at your arguments then Maimonides seems to have passed you by - not to mention those who followed in his footsteps. This message has been edited. Last edited by: F van Gelder, |
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